Viper Strike

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Balance & Design
Last bumped on Jun 14, 2020, 2:09:42 AM
All feedback after this point is for 0.9.6.
Balance & Design
Feedback after this point is for 0.9.7
Balance & Design
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IrishKigoi wrote:
How does this ability work with Adder's Touch? Since Mark said that you cannot have simultaneous chaos debuffs.
No I didn't?

Viper strike charges are a completely separate debuff to poison, and you can have both, and both will take effect.
multiple poison debuffs don't stack, only the highest of them takes effect at any given point, but viper strike is it's own separate defbuff.
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IrishKigoi wrote:
Perhaps I assumed incorrectly. So Adder's Touch from passive and Poison Arrow from the skill gem are considered the same type (Poison, even thought I can,t find anything in the passive skill tree or game items that affects "poisons")
Yes, they both use the "poison" debuff. It causes chaos damage over time, has a specific visual effect, and only the highest-intensity one on an object at any time will take effect.I was wrong about this part, each new instance of poison replaces all the existing instance completely. It needs to work that way for poison arrow. Apologies.
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IrishKigoi wrote:
But Viper Strike and Poison Arrow (which are both from Skill Gems) aren't the same type so they do stack.
Yes. I can't understand at all why you would think they'd be the same. Viper strike applies charges, using charge mechanics, rather than a simple debuff, and is visually very different from the poison used by poison arrow and the passive. I don't see what they fact that they're "both from Skill Gems" has to do with that - they're two completely separate and unrelated skill gems, with their own mechanics. I'm not trying to be argumentative either, but I honestly have no idea where you're coming from with that part. Frenzy charges and the blood rage buff both affect attack speed and both come from skill gems, but I wouldn't expect them to work the same way and count as the same buff because they clearly aren't, both visually and mechanically, for exactly the same reasons as poison and viper strike charges.
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IrishKigoi wrote:
And yet all 3 do Chaos Damage over time.
Yes.

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IrishKigoi wrote:
Also the extended duration of buffs/debuffs of passive skills doesnt affect the Adder's Touch poison (because it's from a passive skill)
No, because it's duration is calculated based on how much damage you dealt with a dagger, rather than having a set base value to which increases are applied. However, we still could apply increases to the calculated duration, and I believe that perhaps we should. I've made a note to bring this up when I discuss how durations are handled with Chris. I misread the code when I checked this and jumped to the wrong conclusion. The reason those aren't applied to this is that it's treated as a status ailment like burning rather than a debuff applied by a skill. I've got plans to change how we break up duration stats for various purposes which I plan to discuss with Chris in future, and this is one of the examples where the current system falls over a little.
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IrishKigoi wrote:
but it does affect Poison Arrow it sounds like.
Yes, because they have a base duration which is then affected by increases/decreases to arrive at the total duration.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Apr 30, 2012, 10:00:55 PM
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IrishKigoi wrote:
Mainly these two pieces:

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Mark_GGG wrote:
Buff/Debuff durations apply to buffs/debuffs applied by skills, and it's not possible for them to be applied without skill duration also being applied.

This is the primary section which generated the "both skill gems." Unless there are 2 different fire spells that have different types of "burning" or cold spells with different types of "frozen".
Now I'm even more confused. The part you quoted is explaining that if an effect has buff duration increases apply to it, it also must have skill duration increases apply. It has nothing to do with effects from different gems. I literally cannot see any connection here to what you're saying, beyond the fact both are referring to the poison debuff.
No, there are not two different fire kinds of "burning" caused by different skills. Neither are there two different kinds of poison from poison arrow and adder's touch.
Viper strike is different from them, and is clearly visually distinguished, and clearly uses different mechanics (charges).

If there was a skill dealing fire damage over time in a way that's clearly mechanically different to what burning does *cough0.9.9cough*, that debuff would not be the burning debuff, and would stack with it.

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IrishKigoi wrote:
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Mark_GGG wrote:
The poison in this case is treated as a status effect like burning, so is not affected, although it could technically be called a "debuff".


Adder's Touch - "Critical strikes with Daggers Poison the enemy"
Viper Strike - "Poisons the foe, which can stack up to 4 times. Each time they are re-poisoned the duration is extended."
Poison Arrow - "Enemies who enter the cloud are poisoned for a short time, taking chaos damage."
I was not aware Viper strike's description used the word poison like that - I don't use the skill much, and it didn't when I wrote the description. I can see how that increases confusion, but I still feel that the fact the effect is clearly visually distinguished is a reasonable hint that it's not the same effect as the generic poison.

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IrishKigoi wrote:
As for the duration, I thought Adder's Touch was a flat 2 second duration?
Yep, that was my mistake, forgot it worked like burning and not freeze in that respect - fixed duration, but amount of damage per minute varies with the damage dealt.

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IrishKigoi wrote:
As far as Frenzy and Blood Rage, am I mistaken that both abilities give the exact same TYPE of Frenzy Charge?
No, you're not. There aren't (and can't be) different 'kinds' of frenzy charge. I was referring to the actual buff put on you by blood rage, not the charges it generates, and comparing that buff to a frenzy charge - as an analogy to you comparing viper strike which clearly uses charges, to the poison effect which is clearly a non-charge buff and expecting they were the same.

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IrishKigoi wrote:
Maybe I'm just being a stickler for consistency. Perhaps a rewording of Viper Strike to "Plagues the foe" or "Envenoms the foe". Then, at least, poisons are one thing and this Viper Strike damage is another.
I would not be opposed to such a change - as I said above, I didn't know Viper Strike's description had change to what it is now, but it's not my call. I'll bring it up sometime when things are less busy.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Apr 30, 2012, 10:05:35 PM
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Lichalfred wrote:
This skill was once good with bows
Viper strike has never worked with bows. Are you thinking of poison arrow?
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kahzin wrote:
I've read that every single humanoid enemy in PoE is resistant to chaos damage. I've read in multiple forum posts that 'Resists chaos damage' means, that the enemy has 75% chaos resist. (I havn't found any source to confirm this tho!)
I have no idea where you heard either of these things but they're both untrue.
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epitapher wrote:
It seems Growing Agony Gem doesn't work with multistrike because the 3 strikes are regarded as a single attack, so the damage won't increase until the next 3 strikes.
That is not the case.

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epitapher wrote:
It would be nice the 3 strikes count separately and the poison debuff stacks 3 times, too.
This is what occurs. The attack cannot repeat until the previous repeat has finished. Assuming it didn't miss, this will mean there's an extra poison on the enemy, and this is counted when damage is calculated for the next repeat, increasing it's damage.
If you want to use a slow weapon, and have other things apply poison while you swing, you need to take into account that damage for a swing is determined at the start of the swing, so poison gained between starting a swing and it connecting won't be included.

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