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General Support Discussion

"
Mune wrote:
We could use a forum section for player questions please.

These skill gem threads and Beta General are very common places for people to ask questions :)

Anyways:
"
Mune wrote:
even though a single support gem evens it out on its own (LMP) or would grant an *overall* increase (Fork; +30%, -20%).

Increased and Less are different steps in damage calculation.

First off, there's Increased and Decreased modifiers, which stack additively with eachother.
100 damage, 20% Inc, 10% Dec works out like so:
100 + (20-10)% = 100 + 10% = 110

Then come More and Less modifiers. Again, stack with each other (EDIT: recently learned that they're actually entirely separate, multiplicative multipliers, instead of added together!), but since they're calculated after Inc/Dec, they are multiplicative to Inc/Dec.
100 damage, 20% Inc, 20% Less works out like so:
100 + 20% = 120
120 - 20% = 96

And that's why they don't even out neatly if LMP adds 20% and takes 20% :P

Every damage modifier of the same type is calculated at the same time, mind. This includes Passives, Gems, Gear, Buffs, Auras, the whole deal. The Increased Projectile Damage on your gem stacks additively with the Proj Damage from passives.


"
Mune wrote:
Also by using that bow ( always pierce ) it seems that arrows don't branch off properly?

Pierce, Fork and Chain are mutually exclusive on a per-hit basis. If a projectile Pierces a target, it cannot Fork or Chain on that target. If it hits a second target and does not Pierce it, it will Fork or Chain. The Pierce roll comes first, so with 100% Pierce, a projectile will always Pierce.
I don't know in which order Fork and Chain are decided.

"
Mune wrote:
LMP, Fork and Chain obviously are not meant to be used together.
i.e. I fail to understand if Chain would add 3 extra shots to each projectile of LMP or only 1 in total.

The way I heard, only the 'original' projectiles will trigger Fork and Chain, which is why Chain is so good with Ethereal Knives and Split Arrow (tons of projectiles naturally). That said, I might very well be wrong, so take this with a grain of salt.
Last edited by Vipermagi on Dec 27, 2012, 3:07:52 AM
Totally ninja'd by Viper.

Original Post
Pierce, Fork, and Chain are different ways for a projectile to "continue", as is (sort of) the AoE of Fireball/Arctic Breath.

If an Arrow pierces, it can't fork or chain. If it has both fork and chain, projectiles will fork first, then chain if they hit something again.

The difference with he damage is Increased/reduced on the one side, and more/less on the other.
'More/Less' is always multiplicative, increases are additive.

So, if you have +100% bow damage, and lmp with 30% increased damage, that's 130% increase.
Now, those 230% damage are multiplied by 0.7 (MP), 0.8 (Fork), and 0.6 (Chain), for a total of ~78% damage.

In total, lmp+fork+chain cut your damage in three, no matter what increases you have.
Fork/Chain are really not meant to be used together, an inherent pierce chance is bearable, but Infractem is not the way to go ;)

Zaanus:
Global chat: Mechanics for A work one way, B for another, C for a third but also with A, B uses C but not A, and D uses A&B but not C

___
Isn't a "no" better than an ignore?
Last edited by UnDeaD_CyBorG on Dec 20, 2012, 11:21:04 AM
Thanks guys :D
No, Infractem is just another *fancy* unique, good for a quick test drive to try out the different support effects (else I'd have removed the mana leech anyway lol).
Piercing Shot (Supernode) + Pierce (Support) together is okay, but I need a strong attack that can take care of everything (AoE, bosses, sustainable mana cost) and didn't want to make another LA ranger. Looks like Piercing isn't viable then :(
Running BA + LMP + Fork atm which is okayish.
Chain cost too much (200%, a gem slot and reduced dmg is too much).
I've tried Poison Arrow with Chain because someone told me the cloud damage won't be affected by Chain's dmg decrease, but I have my doubts.

If you're leaving PoE, chances are I'll rezz you as my minion! MWHAHAHAH
"
Vipermagi wrote:
The way I heard, only the 'original' projectiles will trigger Fork and Chain, which is why Chain is so good with Ethereal Knives and Split Arrow (tons of projectiles naturally). That said, I might very well be wrong, so take this with a grain of salt.

Trying Split Arrow then. cheers!
back ^^
First impression:
Hard to sustaina Split+CHain (and then some other supports), mana-wise, there's a lot bouncing going on though which is fun.
Need very elite equips and everything thrown into phys dmg increase.
For AoE grinding yes, for boss fights no.
I'll stick to Burning Arrow and try get more dmg going.
If you're leaving PoE, chances are I'll rezz you as my minion! MWHAHAHAH
Last edited by Mune on Dec 20, 2012, 12:38:56 PM
Idea for Gems leveling development.

In FF7 a rewarding system for materia, once it become maxed at 3 or 5 stars (usually alot of xp needed) the materia would be at it's maximum potential and birth a level 1 materia. Example allowing the player to level grind and max the skill summon Knights of the Round Table a few times and have fun casting it alot.

My idea follows on from that style of system because it's a great reward for a players hard earnt time and energy to level the gem.

- Once a gem is considered 'high' or 'maxed' allow the gem to birth a new level 1 gem of the same type, but this gem starts at 5% or 10% quality. Doing this will,
a) Reward time playing the game
b) Reduce farm mode grinding style of game play
c) Keep it balanced by making the player level the new birthed gem
d) Reduce players dependency on GCPs
e) maxing gems isnt always desired due to mana cost, but to max a gem to birth a high quality can become worth the effort.
f) GCPs still useful for people not interested in re-leveling, and would rather trade to max the gems they have already which are maxed.

I personally dont know how fast it's to level gems to near max, but i hope it's not a huge grind which suffers from nasty DR. Making Gems hard to max (in my opinion) shouldnt become another grind. Because the grind isnt maxing the gem, the grind is getting gems of high quality to max. Since that takes far more time and effort to find one that drops using quality support gem, or grinding enough GCPs to max your gem.

If players spend levels 1-70 with 5 key gems, then are forced to find 25 GCPs (in my opinion) it feels the game can force a grind for the sake of a grind. Im sure this game isnt leaning towards max grinding (despite the game GGG) and will most likely keep players 'interested' in the game to play, instead of forced to grind to play.

Hopefully im not doubling up on an idea etc, just my 2 cents.
Sacrificing a high level gem to get a low level gem of quality is not a bad idea.
As for the grind, it is. However, given you don't play for the gems, but for equipment and levels, you don't actually grind the gems, most of the time, they just level besides you.
I never had to relevel a gem from level 1, so not sure about that one.
Zaanus:
Global chat: Mechanics for A work one way, B for another, C for a third but also with A, B uses C but not A, and D uses A&B but not C

___
Isn't a "no" better than an ignore?
You can't copy everything from FF7. Master materia spawning duplicates is one example. The only reason it made sense in FF7 was multiple party members; here, who would you give it to?

I think a better solution would be to create a new vendor formula to either directly upgrade a gem or yield Gemcutter's Prisms (I think you can already trade in 40 quality of gems for a Prism, but that never happens in real life). My suggestion: Change the Prism formula to 40 combined quality AND level, so if you turn in 3 level 12 Dual Strikes and one of them has 5 quality, you get one Prism.

==========================================================================

Also, some thoughts on remote skills:
- Ranged Attack Totem should be a green gem with a secondary Str requirement. Spell Totem should be a blue gem with a secondary Str requirment. All active skill totems should be red totems, and vice versa.
- The Trap support gem should be divided into two new support gems: Spell Trap, which should be blue with a secondary Dex requirement, and Attack Trap, which should be red with a secondary Dex requirement that uses your weapon to determine its damage (melee or ranged). The latter would simply execute the linked attack when the target is within melee range (trigger radius not increased by using ranged attacks). All active skill traps should be green traps, and vice versa.
- Remote Mines are stupid and should be removed completely. Instead, just make it so your traps see you as friendly, but you see your traps as enemy (also, you actually see them and target them, unlike your enemies). Want to detonate your traps early? Attack them. Just code traps so that taking damage from you triggers them, while taking damage (AoE) from opponents silences them forever. Freeze Mine would become Freeze Trap, and Remote Mine would be deleted (or would have become Spell Trap, if you prefer). Note that stuff like Chain support would have some interplay with automatic detonations, and that melee characters would have the most difficulty detonating prematurely (although a weapon switch might enable it).
- The Summon Skeletons gem should be removed (in part because the Summon Skeletons Spell Totem is a little OP) and replaced with two support gems, Summon Skeletal Warrior and Summon Skeletal Archer. The first would be a red gem with a secondary Int requirement that links to a melee skill and uses melee weapon damage (at a reduced amount); the second a green gem with a secondary Int requirement that links to a ranged skill and uses ranged weapon damage (also at a reduced amount; wands okay, even though the minions will still shoot arrows). Both of these would not have a corpse requirement (they can't be Spell Totem'd so it's okay), and you could probably even remove the duration too; however, a limit of 6 skeletons wouldn't let you have 6 of each, but instead something like 4 of one, 2 of the other (this would involve switching weapons anyway). This might make spellcasters care a little more about what weapons they use, which is probably a good thing. In terms of other summons, all active-skill summons should be blue summons and vice versa, and always require a corpse (or corpses) to do their thing, to prevent Spell Totem abuse. Thanks to passives like Lord of the Undead, Witches and Int-classes in general would still be queens (and kings) of the damned; Skeletal Archers would be glass-cannon, Zombies tanky, Skeletal Warriors somewhere in between (you should still need to replace them frequently), with Spectres providing random utility. Note: the Minion Damage support might have to be significantly redesigned or even scrapped.

==========================================================================

And finally, here's an idea I have for a Demonic Servant skill. When the skill is cast at a specific point, all corpses within a radius of that point are consumed (number might increase with gem level or quality). As long as a certain number of corpses are consumed this way (number might decrease with gem level or quality), a powerful and tanky demon minion is called. Statwise, it functions much like the golems from Diablo 2's necromancer or the gargantuan from D3's Witch Doctor... in other words, a single, tough minion you can only have one of, with no passive on the passive skill tree allowing you to get more. The catch is that the more/different types of corpses you feed your demon when you summon it, the more powerful it is/it gains different abilities. (Perhaps Increased Area of Effect would make the corpse consumption radius bigger, perhaps it wouldn't. Might be imbalanced if you could.)
A shining light in a sea of stagnant bong water.

Last edited by Rachel_GGG on Sep 31, 2018 0:61:72 PM
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Dec 31, 2012, 10:50:35 PM
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
You can't copy everything from FF7. Master materia spawning duplicates is one example. The only reason it made sense in FF7 was multiple party members; here, who would you give it to?



My idea is about preventing a random chance grind, and more a direct control of leveling. If the idea about getting X about of the same gem of X quality to trade for the same gem with a higher quality, then players will either farm early acts quest rewards for the gems, or have to roam around farming mobs hoping the gems will drop. Or forced to trade with others for the gem, and this becomes a problem when everyone wants the same type of gem, so getting 10 of the same type would increasingly be harder.

Compared to the idea i put forth, players would only need to keep there current gems they always had, and when they really want to perfect their gear, they can start to swap the level 20 gem for level 1 and start to level it with the new added effects. By allowing the newly birth gem to be of 5% or 10% means GCP are still a needed item in PoE.

Few extra handly parts about using this method, is that your level 20 gems are always still there, so your time wasnt wasted. The new level 1 gem can be handed to your other toons, or other players for a nice trade.

Just because this is similar to FF7, DOESNT mean it should be rejected. Afterall, it's obvious ff7 and ff10 and D2 and many other ARPG have played an important part in making PoE an amazing game.

---
@Devs, i really hope you consider the idea ive put forth, im sure mass item farming for GCP or gems isnt everyones idea of fun.
Last edited by Barnabas on Jan 1, 2013, 12:07:44 AM
"
Barnabas wrote:
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
You can't copy everything from FF7. Master materia spawning duplicates is one example. The only reason it made sense in FF7 was multiple party members; here, who would you give it to?



My idea is about preventing a random chance grind, and more a direct control of leveling. If the idea about getting X about of the same gem of X quality to trade for the same gem with a higher quality, then players will either farm early acts quest rewards for the gems, or have to roam around farming mobs hoping the gems will drop. Or forced to trade with others for the gem, and this becomes a problem when everyone wants the same type of gem, so getting 10 of the same type would increasingly be harder.

Compared to the idea i put forth, players would only need to keep there current gems they always had, and when they really want to perfect their gear, they can start to swap the level 20 gem for level 1 and start to level it with the new added effects. By allowing the newly birth gem to be of 5% or 10% means GCP are still a needed item in PoE.

Have you ever leveled a gem to level 20?

Answer: no.
Conclusion: Blind FF7 fanboyism.
A shining light in a sea of stagnant bong water.

Last edited by Rachel_GGG on Sep 31, 2018 0:61:72 PM
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
"
Barnabas wrote:
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
You can't copy everything from FF7. Master materia spawning duplicates is one example. The only reason it made sense in FF7 was multiple party members; here, who would you give it to?



My idea is about preventing a random chance grind, and more a direct control of leveling. If the idea about getting X about of the same gem of X quality to trade for the same gem with a higher quality, then players will either farm early acts quest rewards for the gems, or have to roam around farming mobs hoping the gems will drop. Or forced to trade with others for the gem, and this becomes a problem when everyone wants the same type of gem, so getting 10 of the same type would increasingly be harder.

Compared to the idea i put forth, players would only need to keep there current gems they always had, and when they really want to perfect their gear, they can start to swap the level 20 gem for level 1 and start to level it with the new added effects. By allowing the newly birth gem to be of 5% or 10% means GCP are still a needed item in PoE.

Have you ever leveled a gem to level 20?

Answer: no.
Conclusion: Blind FF7 fanboyism.


Have you EVER read my first post on the topic?

Classic fkn blind troll.

P.S I like it how your so open to understanding someones point of view in this BETA TESTING FEEDBACK PERIOD. Have you ever learnt to read? Pish, another snob nosed l33t kid.
Last edited by Barnabas on Jan 1, 2013, 10:07:00 AM

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