Damage Over Time Changes - Part 1

Increased burning damage changed to multiplicative + new DoT support gems = RF new meta??
Creator of the Praxis ring.
Want to stop power creep? Gut crit chance and crit multi.
Rory I love u, by far my favourite person at GGG
Every Class 100
Discord Fyndel#8812 if u cant catch me online in Poe
Will be excited to play something besides the meta Burn or chaos double dipping.
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Fyndel wrote:
Rory I love u, by far my favourite person at GGG

Agreed
The maker of Tempest Thunder, Tempest Locket, Foe Pace, Damnation March, Apocalypse Hand.... and much more.

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Last edited by Mai_Cedere on Apr 26, 2017, 11:16:38 PM
I've always wondered why bleeding isn't cumulative. From a flavour perspective it seems like it should be, the more cuts you apply to an enemy the more they bleed, since the current mechanics make it sequential in the application of the bleeding 'stacks' it has always been a second tier DoT effect. Wouldn't it make more sense to apply the stacks cumulatively like poison?
I finally enjoyed playing(fully) poe this league, because I played a poison-bow build

not because it's OP/broken; but because it's one of the few builds that has the smoothest gameplay. No crit, no status effects = no ignites/shocks/shatters = rock solid 60 fps = enjoyable gameplay

Reading this post, I was fine with the nerf/adjustments, until this part:

"
changes to make Poison and Bleed count as "Ailments", and how these ailments will interact with critical strike damage bonuses, and a new keystone.


Please, don't give poison/bleed fps-reducing effects like ignites or shatters


"
Rory wrote:
For the last several leagues, abilities that use damage over time mechanics such as Poison and Ignite have been present in a large majority of end game builds. These mechanics proved to be some of the most efficient sources of damage.

This is because the base damage for Ignite, Poison and Bleeding is the damage that was taken by an enemy from the hit. So if a hit dealt Fire Damage and caused an Ignite, any modifiers to Fire Damage would apply to the damage of the hit, as well as to the Ignite. Because the hit dealing more damage meant the Ignite had more base damage to scale, this meant such modifiers applying to the hit had a cumulative effect on the Ignite's base damage, in addition to applying normally to the Ignite's Fire Damage value. Similarly, the enemy's Fire Resistance applying to the hit meant the Ignite would have lower base damage, and since the Ignite deals fire damage, it would also then lower the damage taken from the Ignite. This was commonly referred to as "double dipping". Builds that focused on the damage type of the Poison, Bleed or Ignite they caused were capable of receiving a significantly larger increase to their damage from certain passives and skills than builds that didn't use these mechanics.

We've decided to make some changes to this system for a few reasons. Firstly, builds that didn't use Poison or Ignite required significantly more investment to reach the same damage values, and we'd like to level the playing field to bring more builds to a closer power level and progression. Secondly, when balancing the power of items and modifiers, we always had to take the potential for double dipping into account. We had to reduce the power of core passives and common items that are effective for Ignite and Poison builds to the point where they're not worth the investment for other builds. Lastly, Ignite and Poison had to be reduced in power so they were at a desired damage level after heavy investment in effects that "double dipped", making them virtually worthless for builds that didn't take advantage of these systems, creating another trap for players to fall into if they weren't aware of the minutia of the game mechanics.

In the Beta for The Fall of Oriath, we're going to be trying out a new damage over time system. Skills will calculate their Ignite, Poison or Bleed values as a separate damage value, taken straight from the base and added damage of the skill. This will give skills that deal fire damage a minimum and maximum Ignite Damage per Second value that will be rolled on Ignites that the skill causes. Poison, Bleed and Ignite damage values will be based on the base damage of the skill, and then affected by appropriate damage modifiers. Some damage modifiers will affect both the hit and the Ignite, Poison or Bleed, while some may only affect one.

As an example, Ignite can be modified by modifiers to Burning Damage, Fire Damage, Damage Over Time, general damage modifiers, and resistances. This means that Increased Spell, Attack, or Weapon Damage will no longer influence your Ignite, Poison or Bleed damage at all. It also means that while modifiers to Fire Damage will still apply both to a hit and to the Ignite it causes, since the Ignite’s base damage is the same as the hit’s, rather than being the damage the enemy took from the hit, there is no cumulative effect - the modifier applying to the hit has no effect at all on the Ignite - the two are entirely separate.

To compensate for the loss of damage from the removal of "double dipping", the damage of player Ignites, Poisons, and Bleeding have been doubled. Increases to these effects on the passive tree have been boosted as well, and additional Poison and Bleeding bonuses have been added to some weapon clusters, on top of their existing stats.

Bleeding is also being changed for players so that it does more damage while the target is stationary, making it a more versatile source of damage. Previously it dealt only one sixth its damage while the target was stationary, but will now deal half damage instead. The ratio will remain unchanged for Bleeding caused by monsters, so will still be able to stand still to mitigate the majority of monster Bleeding damage, but monsters you inflict Bleeding on won't be so lucky.

We'll be testing this new system out in the Beta. The goal for Poison and Bleeding is to create an additional mechanic that can be invested in as an optional way to boost your damage with a damage over time component. We intend that if you take Poison or Bleed bonuses in the passive tree and equip items with powerful new ailment damage increases, it will be a reliable way to boost your damage on high health or mobile targets.

The goal for Ignite is to have it be a far more reliable ailment for Fire Damage characters without heavy investment resistance reduction and double dipping mechanics, while still allowing for a focussed Ignite damage build.

We're going to be changing a few existing support gems. An example of this is the Increased Burning Damage Support, which will now grant a multiplicative bonus. We'll be talking about others in future. We'll also be adding new support gems to further let characters improve damage, give new sources of chances to cause Bleeding, Poison and Ignite, and adding new ways to interact with these effects.

In a subsequent post early next week, we're going to go into some more specifics, like how this change will affect monsters, changes to make Poison and Bleed count as "Ailments", and how these ailments will interact with critical strike damage bonuses, and a new keystone.

Reply to this forum post with any questions you have about damage over time mechanics or design, and we'll be answering them in a third post in this series.


We could really use some clarification on whether nodes like AoE, projectile damage, etc will still apply to the DoT. I can understand AoE applying to vortex DoT damage since the DoT is an actual area effect however for something like poison applied via Blade Flurry (an AoE skill) the poison is an instanced effect on the mob and not an area effect so it seems odd that AoE damage nodes would scale the poison.

This is even more out of place for something like poison applied via projectile since the projectile is completely out of the picture when the DoT is in effect. While you could naively argue that an area effect leaves a poison area effect which continues to effect the mob (despite there being no visual indication of it) it's harder to find a plausible reason for the projectile damage increase to still apply.
A nerf on double dipping damage is definitely needed. However, there are still little reasons for a character who deal fire or physical damage to not wanting these automatically inflicted DoT aka free damage. People want power and are lazy as hell.

Imo elemental focus is a good direction. Buff it or add similar incentives so that people would have more reasons to not going for ignite. Similar things needed for poison.

Buffing gems that only affect secondary effects (increased burning damage, rapid decay etc) would also shift players' attention away from double dipping.

Another way is to make ignite or poison applicable only on cursed enemies. Such mechanic adds an additional obstacle to double dipping. However, players are most likely going to hate it since we want power and are lazy as hell.
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
ok, 3am, head is fuzzy, not entirely sure I fully gasp the entire thing, but a few thoughts on what seemed to be whats going on...



Its still double dipping, essentially, and for ignite I feel like thats fine but for poison I think this fails to fix one of the main things I felt was wrong with the system, it might fix the damage, might, but...

Ok, so if I have a physical attack, scale physical attack damage and then poison from that I need to invest in separate poison boosting mechanics that only scale my poison. However, if I have a chaos attack and poison from that then the increases to chaos im scaling my main hit from also increase my poison, the poison is no longer based off this increased hit, but they still double dip in that it increases both portions of the damage, youve sort of taken out the triple dip but not the double dip. So a Wither totem will still scale both my main hit and my poison now IF I hit with a chaos damage attack, if I hit with a physical damage attack it will only scale the poison...

So poison is still shit for a physical scaled build compared to a chaos scaled build right? If you build physical weapon damage with a physical weapon you are still "doing it wrong" and the "correct" way to build it is added chaos gem, added chaos on gear, chaos passives, wilther totem etc.
cture in favour of direct chaos damage attacks. I find that a bit disappointing if Im being honest.
essentially, this is correct.

they are removing the dot scaling off initial hit as % and replace it with base value. which in poison's case isnt a big deal at all(not as big as with ignites anyway)

so with chaos double dips could still happen, the base DoT simply wont scale off 8% of initial hit over two seconds, but some flat value.

so yeah a 20k initial hit and 15k poison DoT will still double dip with some increased values. which doesnt really change a ton unless flat value is really small. but seeing how flat dot things like decay are really strong, I dont see this changing a ton if there are many modifiers that can double dip. chaos damage double dip will still be extremely, extremely strong for things like ED+decay.
Finally! A nerf with compensation!
Compensation is not good though but atleast It's not all nerf again just in previous leagues xD
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