Changes to the Labyrinth

Shovelcut wrote:

I totally agree with you. I've gone through every thread in Turtledoves list and I can guarantee you that there is some quality feedback in there. The problem is that it's buried under a ton of shit posts.

Fair enough. Thanks for the constructive reply. Tastes differ, and that's also fair enough. I think you are in the minority, but that's also fine. I believe you hit the nail on the head when you said "efficiently" -- lab runners usually avoid everything (Traps, monsters) and focus on killing only Argus and Izaro as fast as possible while amassing as many keys as possible. I'm not saying this is inherently "bad", I'm just saying it's not killing enough shit to suit my tastes. You disagree. We both disagree on the degree to which people agree about this. All good. I think in the post in which I originally quoted from you I got a bit agitated at your response to Vigilantecat:

Shovelcut wrote:

What if the shoe was on the other foot and the only way to gain ascendancy was to [insert your most hated game aspect here]? How would you feel then? I digress...

I'd man-up and beat that shit. Or I'd go play something else if it was too big of an issue to move past. But I wouldn't linger here for any extended period of time trying to change a game I no longer play.

It seems to me as if you were, here echoing the faulty argumentation against which I was trying to argue, namely: Person A says "I don't like this", Person B says "You can't do this". I just want to reiterate: it's a question of taste in his argument, not skill.

I don't want to beat a dead horse. I didn't realize that Turtledove was composing a list, I have had a brief look and concur: a significant portion of it is baseless, unconstructive whining. I do not wish to be associated with such a list.

Good luck to all
Underrated stats: Basic human decency, small quantum of respect, microportion of compassion
Turtledove wrote:

onomastikon, that was well put and reflects the thoughts and feelings for many. An ARPG game play is about kill monsters, get loot not running past screens full of trap gauntlets. Thank you for voicing your opinion on the disliked labyrinth. As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. 101 new account names added to the list from just this one thread for a total list length of 875. Over 320 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 870 posters in support

Thank you. Could you kindly remove me from that list? I do not wish to be associated with it. I am not calling for any changes. It is true: I dislike the Lab -- but, as I thought to have mentioned, I do not believe it is changeworthy. I am not forced to do it except to obtain my Ascendancy points, which amounts to about 90 minutes or so of unhappy waste per character; it just seems like too much effort to change all of that for my benefit. I am not saying it is good; I am merely saying it is unpleasant and wasteful.
I posted my post merely to attempt to help assuage difficulties in communication.
I also do not believe that compiling a list is a constructive contriubtion to good communication amongst us. I think it shortens many arguments unnecessarily. In this case, adding my voice to it does an injustice to what I believe to be saying: I don't want it changed, but I would be happy to see the discourse about it changed.
Thank you and good day and good luck
Underrated stats: Basic human decency, small quantum of respect, microportion of compassion
onomastikon wrote:

I believe you hit the nail on the head when you said "efficiently" -- lab runners usually avoid everything (Traps, monsters) and focus on killing only Argus and Izaro as fast as possible while amassing as many keys as possible. I'm not saying this is inherently "bad", I'm just saying it's not killing enough shit to suit my tastes.

Running the laby efficiently doesn't necessarily mean you skip the mobs and stack keys, that's what I would consider efficient laby farming.

What I would consider necessary to efficiently complete the laby would be
  • Knowing how the Izaro buffs work and how to deal with them.
  • Knowing how to navigate through traps and deal with them without losing too much HP or with little flask usage without having to stop and study the layout (the trap gauntlets all seem to have a certain number of layouts and after a few dozen or so runs you can easily just blast through traps without flasks or movement skills)
  • Knowing how to use the Map at each door and how the laby rooms are generally laid out.

It's not much of a list, but it's mostly not intuitive to pick up on either.

Argus and the treasure keys aren't necessary things to complete the laby and for the most part you can ignore them. Unless you're farming laby ofc.

Try killing mobs as you move through the laby, you might be surprised how much currency and decent loot you can get from 1 laby run. I'm not talking about full clearing each room, just kill shit on your way to the door if it's in your path. The XP isn't bad either if you're around the mlvl of the laby you're running. :)

You're probably right about me being a minority. I'm a long time fan of old school rogue-likes, I always loved the rogue-like feeling I got from the PoE races and the introduction of the laby was like a wet dream for me. Still hoping for an Endless Ledge-like laby race, but I'd likely be the only one playing it. hehe
Just a lowly standard player, often found in global 2.

Current IGN: Don_Juan_de_la_Nooch
Lykkoith wrote:
Hell yeah, you want to have the same rewards that someone who actually accepts the challenge, at the cost of nothing. You want ascendancy points and enchantments, right? But you don't want to get them by yourself, neither to pay someone to get them for you. Lab is as optional as ascendancies are. You don't like it? Ok, just don't do it, all you have to do is forget about getting those rewards.

"Hey guys! I want a 100 ex gear for my build, but I don't want to even think about farming them myself. Can you please give it to me for free?" Oh c'mon! Are you serious!?

Ridicolous post. Moreover: ascendancies optional? Even more ridicolous ;) Without them, a duelist/witch cannot specialize at maximum effectiveness in block, a marauder not at maximum in leech, a shadow not at maximum in crit etc

People is NOT asking ascendancy points for free. People is asking to detach them from lab, maybe making them a reward for killing the gods (lore: that god's aura was hindering your innate abilities, and now that you have killed him/her, some of your powers return to you). And this is not too much difficult to understand, for someone that possess at least two neurons anyway

And the sad thing is: GGG continues to hear to people like you...

Time to have a long pause with this game: i was thinking to give some serious money to GGG for 3.0, but after this thread about Lab, i have totally rethinked my decision

And who said you can specialize "at maximum effectiveness" (your own words) while ignoring certain contents in the game? The ridiculous thing here, is that you and some others want to get "maximum" rewards al low or no price. Ascendancies are as optional as "maximum effectiveness" is. You can still beat endgame content without being optimal or "maximum effectiveness". You want it anyway? Ok, then fight for it, that's simple. I myself, plan my builds at 6 ascendancies because I know I don't need the last 2 and they can be too hard/annoying to get. I choose to forget that 2 last ascendancy points, so yes, it is optional, whatever you realize that or not.

Getting ascendancies out of the lab and granting them for killing certain bosses... bosses that you will eventually fight as they're mandatory for the story? Oh c'mon! That way, ascendancies wouldn't even be rewarding, becoming Ascendant/Elem/whatever ascendancy you want would be just anecdotal, as you know you'll get them as part of the story. No challenge, no reward, and actually not an option, since you will face that bosses whatever you want the ascendancies or not.

The fact, is that GGG doesn't listen to me or to people like me, they listen to majority of their community and do what they think it's the best for their game. The sad part of this is that people like you think that the minority you represent deserves to be listened above the majority of people who actually understand that there must be no high reward without high effort.

That being said, lab is the result of many people working on it's development during only they know how much time. They can fix small things here and there, but they simply will not remove their own work just because a vast minority of their community is too lazy and/or unskiled to handle it, and too greedy/ridicolous to pay a few chaos for someone to help them. If you are at the same time lazy, unskilled, greedy and ridicolous... hey mate, that's not GGG's problem.
Feel free to ckeck some skill suggestions:
When the Labyrinth was first released, it made a lot of sense for the runs to be long and trials to be tricky and difficult to deal with. But after all this time since its release (especially for long time POE players), I have to admit that lab runs felt more like a chore, especially for the first four very important points (normal/cruel) that temporarily stopped you from progressing through to reach the end game more quickly.

I think that lab runs being shorter in general, along with a shorter number of trials + the fact that we only need to do trials once per league and not once per character. All these combined might make the lab feel less "chore-like". Liking these new changes very much :).
Last edited by Zevalex on May 19, 2017, 8:37:07 AM
NickK_GGG wrote:
The ascendancy trees were designed from the start to accommodate eight points, and specifically that those points be distributed in groups of two.
They were just six points in the beginning... this uber lab thing came before with the couple of extra points... and it was so much better when they were just six: T.T
So, no nerf traps damage and izaro damage? Labs still sux... thats really bad news
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Ah, the whiners who sit around whining all day every day flooding the thread with their tears and further shitting up the forums even more with their spam and generic copy pastas.

Delicious tears.
TreeOfDead wrote:
So, no nerf traps damage and izaro damage? Labs still sux... thats really bad news

why should they be nerfed?
you want this game to become boring and trivial?
So still no word on if offerings to the goddess will be required or not? That's one question I think everyone deserves an answer to

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