Trade Manifesto

"Items Matter. Trade is Important.
[...]
Items are a player's reward for playing Path of Exile."

After thinking, if think you're wrong here.
Currently:
If you trade, items are not a reward for playing, it's a reward for trading.
If you don't (SSF), it's a reward for spending infinite amount of time identifying crap or farming currencies.

REMOVE TRADING, and increase the currency drop rate for everyone to be able to craft themselves.

The crafting system, especially with the new annulment orb (same goal but far less OP than eternals, that could be restored in-game with a low drop rate) and the masters specials (especially lock prefix/suffix), already has everything to craft good items, it's just currently too hard to craft regarding the drop rate of currencies.

I don't understand why trading would be so mandatory, you get so much more fun crafting your own items than just clicking "accept" to buy it.

Where's the fun to play if the way to get your gear is not by playing the game ...
SSF for ever :)
Last edited by LoloTwingo on Nov 3, 2017, 12:31:28 PM
I would be remiss if I didn't input my 2cents.

I think the thing that bothers me the most here is just how staunch and un-moving you are... unwavering in something that clearly is actually a significant issue in your game. What amazes me is that it feels you are completely out of touch with the actual game and people playing it... which is completely opposite how I feel about you as a company usually. I am wondering how many times any of you at GGG have dealt with running through a list of like 15 players to get a single 1-2C trade? How many times you have to deal with having to try to determine what an actual price is for an item with so many price fixers out there? How many lost sales you've had because of certain maps you were in that you simply couldn't come out to trade? I guess I'm just part of the top 1% who rely on trading... which is weird you almost want to punish me for playing the game you openly admit you built around? It's confusing so much to me...

The second thing that bothers me are the praises you are getting - clearly what was done in the latest trade changes is minimal and only reflects a (basically) pig headed approach. You've done nothing original here. You've essentially copy pasted someone else's work - the only change that is positive is having a black list (will that ignore list be limited? probably) and disregarding AFK/DND... that's it. Like nothing else positive to help us.


Here's the thing: I would do away with trade and complaining about it in a HEARTBEAT should you increase SSF drop ratios - so I have a hope in this history of gaining currency to be able to craft my OWN stuff... or maybe some unique items for myself... MAYBE an NPC vendor who I can trade a T1 unique for ANOTHER T1 unique if I get that lucky on a drop? Or T2 for a T2... etc... Or an NPC to help manage ENCHANTS we get - maybe an enchant "token" where if you collect 10 tokens, you can select the enchant you want as long as you are solo self found? There's things here and there you can do to cut the RNG down a little helping out SSF play and allow a less focus on trade? Maybe invest some resources into "another way" if you feel that your trade ARPG just isn't hitting the numbers you want it to to keep us engaged longer? (I mean - clearly if only a tiny % of us are trading in your "trade based ARPG" then something is seriously seriously wrong here)

It would be like me designing a cup - well... lots of people are BUYING the cup... but no one is using it... I wonder why not? OH - there's holes in the cup... should we fix it? Naw... because lots of people still BUY THE CUP. That doesn't make me an excellent designer though, does it?

Do you not see the very problem here? "I designed a kick butt trade focused ARPG - the only problem is that only like 5% of the players trade" .... uhhhhhhhhh............ see, for me that would be a pretty MAJOR issue to investigate AND FIX.

Or literally the laundry list of ways to handle trade that literally thousands of players have offered solutions for you... instead of blindly ignoring ALL of them, why not try to reach a happy medium? (PS: this is NOT that happy medium)

To be clear: I believe there can easily be a limited value auction house here. I think under 10C automated auction house would be a completely fair and happy medium. Not having to worry about meeting up for anything under 10C - or even some sort of "Ultima Online" style NPC vendor would be ideal.
Last edited by FadeXF on Nov 3, 2017, 1:11:53 PM
"
LoloTwingo wrote:

If you don't (SSF), it's a reward for spending infinite amount of time identifying crap or farming currencies.

first of all, its not 'infinite' amount of time, it's definitely 'finite' (look up the meaning, please)

diabloid arpgs are usually based on the concept of spending a good amount of time repeatingly killing monsters and identifying items dropping from them.

you somehow making it sound like it's a bad thing is kinda funny


"

The crafting system, especially with the new annulment orb (same goal but far less OP than eternals, that could be restored in-game with a low drop rate) and the masters specials (especially lock prefix/suffix), already has everything to craft good items, it's just currently too hard to craft regarding the drop rate of currencies.

first, you cant fully replace the core aspect of a diabloid arpg (killing mobs and getting items FROM THEM) with crafting. you completely devalue already devalued drop values.

second, crafting is by no means 'too hard'. sure, for a mirror-level item, it requires considerable investment. for good items to do all or any content, it absolutely is very feasible.


really, this weapon can make you do all content and it required me an exalt, a fully leveled master and few hundreds alts. something that you can very feasibly achieve in a temp league (and it WAS in temp league, I dont play perma leagues since like 2015)
Infinite was too much, agreed.
I play since 4 years, never traded, and i also have such items (i currently play a dual strike with a 342 and a 389 pDps swords i dropped and enhanced through crafting).


I'm just saying the currency drop rate is a bit too low to be able to use crafting as a regular basis (if you're not playing 10 hours a day, i'm +/- 2 hours).

I don't want the monsters to drop better items, i think they already drop enough good items or at least crafting bases. But i think currencies should drop more. In fact only exalted orbs should drop more, or at least have a recipe to get them.

I dropped +/- 15 exalts in 4 years, that does not allow any kind of advanced crafting.
The drop rate seems to have increased since a few months (since harbinger i think), i think its sufficient, but a recipe with reasonable cost (for example selling 5 uniques to NPC = 1 ex) would completely remove the need to trade.

Why having such an advanced crafting system if the best way to get gear is trading, that's ridiculous.

Another example : 3 months ago i built my first RF build with self dropped shav / bated breath / ephemeral edge (i hit 9K ES), self crafted +% ES ring and other dropped/crafted stuff. That's a reward for playing for long and finally having the gear to play it.
When you trade, you say "oh let's play LL RF", you buy everything and play the same day with god gear, that's not my vision of a grinding/farming game.
SSF for ever :)
Last edited by LoloTwingo on Nov 3, 2017, 1:11:25 PM
love you guys <3

still the best company out there.
"
jddc78 wrote:

"
The Role of Solo Self-Found Mode


I think this is the best part of your post and brings up a very interesting point. You are spot on regarding many players using SSF as a challenge. However, I also think there is a sizable potion of players who would love to play SSF and be done with the trading thing altogether - if they had a higher drop rate of items and currency. This would require having basically a never ending void league so it couldn't merge with others. But ultimately allows your vision of gear progression and farming. The difference is that players can realistically equip their characters in a mode like this.

Your game is superior to Grim Dawn in so many aspects. But when I go back to this game between breaks I can't help but feel like this is the one place where you really miss the mark in POE. Trading is such a polarizing thing because so few people can put in the time to equip your characters solo. I'll stop arguing trade forever if you give me a mode where it is no longer necessary.


+1000
"
LoloTwingo wrote:

Why having such an advanced crafting system if the best way to get gear is trading, that's ridiculous.

I think crafting system and trading have different goals. endgame crafting is designed for you to invest a lot of orbs but to also potentially get something that is far better than what you get via drops.

in general, this is the 'bad' side of currency and crafting mats being the same. on other hand, if exalts were too common, there'd be no point in picking up rare items if you could easily just craft 2 affixes all the time on any weapon, because of simple math.


"

When you trade, you say "oh let's play LL RF", you buy everything and play the same day with god gear, that's not my vision of a grinding/farming game.

I myself dont really like trading. the only reason Im playing in a trading league in harbinger is because theres not much for me in PoE at this point and builds I want to try require very very specific uniques.
I even have a bunch of rules, such as no buying any maps (since summer of 2013), never buy chisels (do recipe instead), no buying league-specific currency

anyway, I agree with instant gratification part. and I hate how the game nowadays is all about grinding currency and not picking up actual gear from the mobs. and bisco's doesnt help at all.
"
grepman wrote:
on other hand, if exalts were too common, there'd be no point in picking up rare items if you could easily just craft 2 affixes all the time on any weapon, because of simple math.

This is just a matter of drop/recipe balancing.
I agree it's not a good thing if they were too common.
Currently they are too rare to avoid trading.
There's for sure an adequate drop/recipe rate between these two.

If you have to sink your exalts for a good item, you do it wisely.
As wisely as i do to choose which item I 6L (farming enough jewelers and fusing takes me weeks, but i do it).

Edit : about 2 affixess -> regal -> exalt crafting method, you know like me how many hundreds of alts it requires just for the first stage, it's self limitating because it's not so easy to accumulate them. Drops are usually the way you get the crafting bases, and i think it's more true than ever since we have annulment orb.
SSF for ever :)
Last edited by LoloTwingo on Nov 3, 2017, 1:33:00 PM
Can you do anything about failed trades? These are the most frustrating part of the system.

When buying:

- You find things you want, and:
1) It's already sold
2) The player is AFK.
3) The player is in a map, lab, etc and doesn't want to trade it for a while.

The workaround people use here is to spam the request to dozens of players, and pick the first one to respond.

- You get a request to buy your item, but:
1) The player has bought it from one of the other 20 people he spammed.
2) After you accept, he lowballs the offer.
3) It's listed at 20 chaos, so he puts 5 chaos, 5 regals and 2 alts, a transmute and at atziri set in the window.
4) It's worth 5 exalts, so you leave your lab to sell it then he doesn't want it anymore.

"
Lolno, what the "varied" loot system does is artificially extend the grind


hahaha. Maybe video games are not for you.

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