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Shared Mines and Sulphite Rebalance

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Fruz wrote:
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Zithorio wrote:
Why not store some kind of value for deepest delve achieved on an account and have that delve depth unlocked on each character's (new and old) unique delve, keep the best of both worlds.

If you are thinking of a mineshaft, it would probably open many "easy" paths to many new nodes by going this far, and it would automatically discover quite some area, which would make biomes discovery / area searchin easier thanks to that very deep fresh mineshaft.
Then you could make a character, check if there are any good places you want to explore on the subteranean chart, and if not ... delete and recreate one.


The crazy thing is, this was already kind of in place thanks to Niko's central shaft. The question would be more of if they could tie Niko's shaft depth, your max depth, and certain end game things together.

Such as the central shaft can be dug up to X if a map of Tier Y if the account has deepest delve depth over X. And map tier 16 or some other suitable endgame content essentially having X be something like max delve depth - 10.

As after all you really don't need the full shaft opened up until your character is leveled and geared enough until doing that content to begin with. And that is really the only place I see the need for the "shared mines" is so that those doing endgame stuff don't have to reclear however many delve levels worth of gap between where Niko stops now and where they were. Prior to that point shared mines doesn't really accomplish anything. Which is the main reason I have kind of picked up from those wanting shared mines is that they want an easy way back to delve levels far enough down to be equivalent or harder than the map tiers they are or will be clearing for sulphite.

Which kinda makes it seem like delve is being transformed from what was intended to be all game content into mostly endgame content. If you step back and look at it, many of the changes to delve make more sense from an endgame only perspective instead of an all game perspective.

I just went over the shared mines part, but if you look at the shared azurite upgrades, they also make more sense from that perspective as well. As it seems the main reason they needed to become shared, was due to the early parts of delve not being balanced well with normal gameplay. Casual delving while doing the story does not provide enough azurite to keep up well with the needed upgrades in order to be able to do delves around your character level. Shared Azurite upgrades bypass this, once one takes the time to grind out enough azurite to do more serious delving. For me, this hints more at the early growth rate of the light radius and darkness resistance penalties not being balanced correctly.

If you look at this from an all game perspective, the solutions might have started more from re-balancing the light radius and darkness resistance penalties to start really kicking in around 50+ depth when people are getting closer to the end of the story and more likely to have built up enough azurite and also getting to the depths where can more quickly fund further upgrades with how the costs scale. If still out of whack for the farther depths, then the shared upgrades makes more sense. And for central mineshaft vs totally shared mines, it also makes more sense for the central shaft being tied to other content progression to avoid mass exposure for each fresh character and also provides ease of return to the deeper depths as well for those that are going so deep.
Well, the mineshat progresses with you until you go significantly deeper yourself at the moment.
Having a mineshaft going to 90 and one going to 250+ is already quite a different story imho.

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Hawklaser wrote:
Casual delving while doing the story does not provide enough azurite to keep up well with the needed upgrades in order to be able to do delves around your character level. Shared Azurite upgrades bypass this, once one takes the time to grind out enough azurite to do more serious delving. For me, this hints more at the early growth rate of the light radius and darkness resistance penalties not being balanced correctly.

Well, I think that it was intended.
If you could have all upgrades mostly keeping up with your level at any point, there would be little meaning in choosing what to upgrade in the first place, and those upgrade would then bring very little.
You are already capped regarding the upgrades at higher level pretty much, so if you are fully capped at any point in time anyway, there would be no point to have that system in the first place.

I like the fact that when you start something, when you are a beginning ( early levels of a char, or early progression of the char in one 'field' ), you are kind of weak and need to start from pretty much nothing.
I kind of despise games that give you all power from the start or crazy shinny effects and very fast gameplay and still pretend to promote progression .... when you already have so much at level 1 ( I was very ... 'surprised' the first time a friend showed me GW years ago for example ).
So in that reguards, I would much rather have the start of it start slowly, with exploration not being easy to begin with.

That being said, it's understandable that one does not want to go through that process again ( leveling gear from the second char eases leveling in the same way for example ) on the second character, and keep for granted what was earned on the first character regarding this.
So it does make more sense to have the mines shared with the Azurite upgrades ( since those are already being shared ).
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

ShakinGaijin : thread 2612666, Dyadus burning earthquake!RIP :(
[outdated]SweetBreaker : thread 823111 (facebreaker IB witch).
[outdated]Sunder guardian : thread 1831267 [BHC]ripped
Last edited by Fruz on Sep 17, 2018, 11:12:51 PM
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Fruz wrote:

Well, I think that it was intended.
If you could have all upgrades mostly keeping up with your level at any point, there would be little meaning in choosing what to upgrade in the first place, and those upgrade would then bring very little.
You are already capped regarding the upgrades at higher level pretty much, so if you are fully capped at any point in time anyway, there would be no point to have that system in the first place.

I like the fact that when you start something, when you are a beginning ( early levels of a char, or early progression of the char in one 'field' ), you are kind of weak and need to start from pretty much nothing.
I kind of despise games that give you all power from the start or crazy shinny effects and very fast gameplay and still pretend to promote progression .... when you already have so much at level 1 ( I was very ... 'surprised' the first time a friend showed me GW years ago for example ).
So in that reguards, I would much rather have the start of it start slowly, with exploration not being easy to begin with.


This is why I don't like the concept of a shared mine, and also why I feel the initial scaling of the penalties is too steep. I'm not saying get rid of the penalties, but their poor scaling is the biggest reason for shared upgrades and also what is pushing delve into more of an endgame exclusive style of content.

From what I can see, the penalties increase at about a rate of 2% per depth level, so approx -60% about depth 30. At around depth of 30 you are getting ~25-40 azurite from cavities/vaults. And with the rate the upgrade costs increase at, Delve quickly goes from "Hey, I can kinda offset crappy RNG when leveling by going to certain nodes" to "I have to be getting primarily Azurite" very fast which ends up quickly removing it from content to do causally while leveling to have breaks from doing the story for the umpteenth time. Which doesn't mesh in well with the normal story progression gameplay well.

Its not to make it too easy, but keep it relevant and accessible during the bulk of the story, when people might not always be stopping to go do a delve when they cap sulphite because going through the story has more impact towards progression. The upgrade costs and amounts dont have to change at all, but the penalties early on could be lessened so that delve is more accessible to those working on getting through the story.
Different opinion, I enjoyed delving during the story quite a lot, and I enjoyed being more comfortable with Azurite later on, the Azurite balance early on is a bit rough, but that's a good thing imho.

SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

ShakinGaijin : thread 2612666, Dyadus burning earthquake!RIP :(
[outdated]SweetBreaker : thread 823111 (facebreaker IB witch).
[outdated]Sunder guardian : thread 1831267 [BHC]ripped
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xykivo wrote:
I want each character to have its own mine progress, with no option for any type of shortcuts.


It's a matter of preference. And yes, going sideways is a solution, just like you could play SSF before SSF support was implemented you will still be able to play delve your way after the patch without screwing up everyone who just don't enjoy don't have the time to grind their way back through the crappy sulphite system to whatever depth their character can handle.
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Innomen wrote:
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Fruz wrote:
There would be barely any excitement seeing anything drop because everything would be worthless as everybody would have it already. (etc)


We don't need anything like manufactured austerity to "incentivize" us to play.


You're half right for the wrong reason. Yes GGG is constrained by the profit motive, but you're too steeped in the dogma of materialism yourself if you think we as players need such things to enjoy ourselves.

We don't. Humans are instinctive creatures with a genetic imperative to among other things, hunt and gather.

This theme is ubiquitous on par with the golden ratio across all human involved contexts. There isn't a single class of thing on earth that isn't collected by someone.

From kitkat flavors to fighter jets, from stones along the road side to news papers and literal trash. Some humans get such a huge dose of this impulse they literally try to collect everything and some even die of it.

Items in this game would be no exception.

As I already explained we're already post scarcity in poe. There are very few items that are truly unavailable. Stepping back, trade pretty much functions like an NPC vendor that sells literally everything for some amount of currency and the VAST majority of it is literally dirt cheap.

If this would hurt the game somehow, it's already done.

It's entirely possible to play some weakened version of most builds even with quest rewards and shop trash. That disproves your implication that the "economy" matters in any meaningful way beyond tricking people into believing that it matters.

You're half right as I said, but you're making the incorrect assumption that people need a profit motive to have a motive. That's simply not how being a mammal works.

However, incentives are needed, and profit motive is one of them.

All you are doing is defending your emotional and cash investment, which is why my statements threaten you because they expose lewt's lack of such value.

Post purchase rationalization.

What you are actually saying is that the game cannot survive as a business model without being very precisely shady, manipulative, and broken. And you are correct.

As for control, for myself personally, since you feel the need to inspect me as an individual, what I want is power shifted to all of society, not a monopoly.

This game is entirely derivative, and yet we apply policy designed to protect originators to it. But GGG didn't originate any of this. Pick any mechanic, or art asset, I'll find it somewhere older for you. POE is a massive remix that would have happened organically like wikipedia if it had not basically been illegal or economically punished doing so.

POE is at its root simply diablo plus final fantasy's materia system and sphere grid.

Legally we have no choice but to care because if GGG fails, the assets will not be converted to open source, they will be horded and shelved.

And if that is the argument you are really making, than make it. Don't dress it up in casino lore and Malthusian economic fiction that totally doesn't apply in a setting composed entirely of numbers.

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MasterAxe wrote:
each character should have their own set of mine layouts.


But they can if you want. I don't understand the opposition to a shared mine. If you go left or right 50 units, like literally until you can't see your old delve, that is qualitatively identical to a whole new delve.

People don't understand what random and infinite ultimately mean.

Imagine it like this: Climbing a specific tree in a forest on a planet. If you'd like to climb a different tree just move left. You don't need a whole new planet to get the exact same difference of experience.



no it's not. the more nodes revealed, the longer the mine map takes to load. it's already significant in my game and I barely delved at all
since I have no hope for significant game design improvements in this game I am officially done with Path of Exile. done for good
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Fruz wrote:
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Innomen wrote:
[...]

You are missing the whole point of arpgs.

It's all about progression.
If you can get everything easily in a couple of days, then there is no more progression, and pretty much no point to play this game as the exploration is reaaally not where it shines ( altho Delve does help a bit with that, but if you've seen all biomes/encounters and don't need any items, I'm pretty positive it's going to get boring real quick. ).

You are really missing the big picture and the whole "point" of this game and what makes it a good one (relative notion, I know) and keep resorting to using condescending nonsense by calling people that don't think like you "emotional" or "materialist".



and YOU are missing an even bigger point, namely that there is NO PROGRESSION IN POE AFTER A CERTAIN POINT. xp penalty kills any progress in level, and rng-shit crafting raids you of your resources. if the point is that the player is supposed to progress towards level 100 and beating all enemies in the game EVENTUALLY, that goal fell prey to design failures of really epic levels in path of exile.

and if the game is still too easy for you... just don't use one of the current meta skills/uniques and look how far you'll get...
since I have no hope for significant game design improvements in this game I am officially done with Path of Exile. done for good
"
Innomen wrote:


Agreed, and I have a theory about your why.

So we know they are strongly motivated to look for ways to make the community need more stash tabs. That means if maps dropped properly or the mechanic didn't even need drops, we'd need the map tab less. And that means new players might do without one at all. == Lost Sale

They don't want people living in the delve, because skipping the main game also skips motivations they've carefully built in over years for spending real money.

I think they are worried what delving will do to stash tab sales hence the sulphite limiter, to act as a backstop against a super unprofitable league for them if it turns out delving doesn't translate into spending as much as mapping does.

Thoughts?



so where is the unique item tab? with around 40 tabs I have all I will ever need. I don't even plan on buying a map tab which was apparently added since I last played cause well, maps aren't overflowing in the first place. I guess most people don't actively collect uniques, because in the trade leagues common uniques are a dime a dozen, but in ssf, finding each and every unique item is a good motivation. I would never buy nor have I ever buy any cosmetic mtx shit, but even with how much I loathe ggg and their inane stubbornness to properly develop the game, I WOULD instantly buy a unique tab (holding one of each) because of how incredibly relevant that is to why I (on-and-off) play the game in the first place. hell, it doesn't even have to be a tab, it could just be an in-game CHECKLIST and it would be fine. in fact that checklist would make people buy more stash tabs to be able to hold all that clutter, so they don't even have to sell it, they could just patch it in. hey, I'm a marketing genius!


so the fact ggg haven't put in a unique tab in my book means it's not all about stash tabs. in fact I believe they amount to maybe 10-20% of overall sales (would love to seen numbers on that). ggg is about selling visual mtx that only serve as very confusing bragging tokens and displays of real life wealth and support for this "great game" among fanboys. stash tabs come, quite as the game itself, second.
since I have no hope for significant game design improvements in this game I am officially done with Path of Exile. done for good
"
LMTR14 wrote:

and YOU are missing an even bigger point, namely that there is NO PROGRESSION IN POE AFTER A CERTAIN POINT. xp penalty kills any progress in level, and rng-shit crafting raids you of your resources.*snip*

Your issue there is entirely different, and the solutuon can be written with two three-letters words.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

ShakinGaijin : thread 2612666, Dyadus burning earthquake!RIP :(
[outdated]SweetBreaker : thread 823111 (facebreaker IB witch).
[outdated]Sunder guardian : thread 1831267 [BHC]ripped
"
Fruz wrote:
"
LMTR14 wrote:

and YOU are missing an even bigger point, namely that there is NO PROGRESSION IN POE AFTER A CERTAIN POINT. xp penalty kills any progress in level, and rng-shit crafting raids you of your resources.*snip*

Your issue there is entirely different, and the solutuon can be written with two three-letters words.


but fuck you has four letters each? I don't get it

and for the record, the biggest problem I've had progressing in this game was that I tried to build my own chars. now I copy builds from the forum which I should always have done because the char building options in this games are nothing but pitfalls and lies. current char is very fast at clearing maps so I might reach level 92 for the first time this time if nothing else. what I said is still completely true though.
since I have no hope for significant game design improvements in this game I am officially done with Path of Exile. done for good
Last edited by LMTR14 on Sep 18, 2018, 9:53:48 AM

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