An extensive guide on Chaos-DoT Spells ft. ED, Bane & Co [3.12 rdy, updated 17.09.]

"
So before I read this post, what I switched to doing for single target is applied multiple blight totems (don't have a socket in my tree for Spreading rot yet), applied Bane (for single curse), then threw an ED on the target. Sounds like I am doing it correctly. Only things I don't do are Withered (since I already have blight and vaal blight on multiple totems, although only 1 totem seems to go off when I cast vaal blight), and contagion (since Contagion is for spreading).


Does that make sense? Anything better I should be doing as I head into maps?


Yes, your doing it right (as soon as you start using some form of withered).
(On a side-note; ensure that your blight-totems actually deal relevant damage, otherwise wither-totems are better cze of range + survivablity)

Blight-Totems-maybe-not-useful?
Blight "Totems" sounds like you use multiple totem support. Make sure that the damage on those Totems is actually relevant.
Mult. Totems+Spell Totem = roughly 50% less damage (and takes up two support gem slots, which would otherwise give roughly 100% more damage).
Thats 50% dmg instead of 200%.
Blight Totems can work, e.g. if you get Shaper Boots (Spell Totem Support affix) or Alleopathy for a pseudo-5Link. An additional Totem via Ascendancy or influenced Shield could also be used to replace multiple Totem Support.
Long story short:
Blight Totems + Investment = good
Wither Totems + no investment = good
Blight Totems + no investment = likely bad
WITHERED
Second thing: Use withered! Find any way to apply 15 stacks of withered.
I have a whole Section on that in the guide (Section 6), main options are Wither Totem, Blight+Spreading Rot(+Totem Support?) or at least Withering Step.
With a level 20 Despair an enemy get's 25% increased damage taken against our DoT, so he takes 125% damage. With 15 Withered Stacks he takes 215% damage, so you almost double your damage by withering. That's for no gear investment at all, all you need is roughly 3 gemslots.
If you really hate to invest in this: Use Withering Step with no link at all, boom, roughly 40% more damage for casting one instant spell.



"
KingCaspianXI wrote:
Super helpful guide. Thank you for the post and the work it must have taken to make.

I am attempting to apply your guide to my Toxic Rain Pathfinder.

the build I'm currently attempting to follow is this one. https://www.poe-vault.com/guides/toxic-rain-pathfinder-build-guide

However, I would like to get your opinion on making it less dependent on Herald of Agony. It feels poison heavy to me.
First of all, thanks for the praise :)
I skimmed through the guide and, well, it's a poison build.
a) I am not sure if focusing on the inherent DoT of Toxic Rain actually can make a viable build, since I haven't played that. Plus b):
Mixing-Poison-and-DoTs-is-kinda-ineffective
Hits, Poison and DoTs may all be chaos damage if you use Toxic Rain, but scaling poison and DoTs at the same time is hard to do / often ineffective.

For poisons, you need a high base damage thus added damage (Added Chaos Damage Support, additonal damage affixes, weapon base damage) and ailment damage scaling. Every gem and affix invested into ailment / base damage is a resource wasted for the DoT.

DoT / Poison can supplement each other, but one of the two will deal the significant damage while the other will just add a little extra.
I guess if you really don't want a poison build you'll need a different guide. I see almost nothing in there which I would include into a CDoT-character.
I try this: If I disagree, I will make a sound opposing argument. It's ok to love/hate something that I hate/love. Devs know PoE better than I do. I am the only player I represent.

Chaos-Caster-guide for any class:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2485596
Last edited by Lightelder on Apr 21, 2020, 11:40:09 AM
Do Spreading Rot jewels really don't stack? As if they don't apply two stacks of Withered instead of one, or did you mean that it's just useless to speed up Withered application, if this is the case.
Spreading Rot does not stack the withered-application.
With one Spreading Rot, "Blight inflicts withered". With two, "Blight inflicts withered".

2 Spreading Rots will stack the increased damage and the increased hinder duration and that's rarely (never?) worth it.

So basically the 2nd Spreading Rot, well
I try this: If I disagree, I will make a sound opposing argument. It's ok to love/hate something that I hate/love. Devs know PoE better than I do. I am the only player I represent.

Chaos-Caster-guide for any class:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2485596
"
Lightelder wrote:
my-plan-for-this-leagues-cdot-char
Low life Shavronne's Wrappings has been part of my first CDoT char back in 3.6. Ever since I fancied the idea of going Low Life with Coruscating Elixier and Pathfinder. It's on my build-bucket-list since an eternity (alongside Traps and Mines and a Summoner)

Eventually I realised that all other Pathfinder-Ascendancies are borderline useless (immune to elemental ailments, 15% inc. movementspeed and 50% inc. AoE is not a good turnout from 3 Ascendancy points). So I'll finally build a Scion-Pathfinder and it won't even be an aura bot (witch starting position is also so much better than rangers for CDoT). I'll post updates here eventually.

The concept looks promising, especially on defenses and the additional Scion-skill-points should be great to dive deep into cluster jewels.


Since I can't bump this post anymore (too old, but I keep it updated), lemme bump this by talking about my Delirium experience without being asked :)

I recently had to downgrade my internet conncection. While I really enjoyed theorycrafting my Scion-CDoT-ClusterJewel-Char for the league, framerates became unbearable in maps. So I retired before reaching my last lab. I expect to get hyped again once the new league info releases but I don't think I'll be in it for the long grind in the upcoming league. Imo my plan is to go SSF into yellow maps and then call it a day.

The guide will remain updated, cluster jewels won't make it in there soon (because I personally have too little experience with them) and in about three more month I should have moved to a better (internet) location and upgraded my tec to go hard again (thumbs pressed).
I try this: If I disagree, I will make a sound opposing argument. It's ok to love/hate something that I hate/love. Devs know PoE better than I do. I am the only player I represent.

Chaos-Caster-guide for any class:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2485596
Last edited by Lightelder on May 27, 2020, 4:14:04 PM
Hello exiles,

the new league has me on the hypetrain again and will try out my second Bane-Occultist since Incursion. Because I don't like playing stuff twice, even two years later, this will be my twist:

I will be getting the Divine Flesh timeless keystone and max out to 90% chaos res (which is great with Occultist due to 60% chaos res on the Withering Presence Ascendency). This should make for amazing damage mitigation against Ele-damage and turn chaos damage irrelevant.

If the concept fails in reality (cooking up your own builds is always risky^^), I'll swap to Corrupted Soul + MoM for a triple lifepool (ES+Mana+Life).

And now the breaking news: The guide is now 3.11 rdy, feel free to share questions, inspirations, build ideas, ... I'm curious :)

I try this: If I disagree, I will make a sound opposing argument. It's ok to love/hate something that I hate/love. Devs know PoE better than I do. I am the only player I represent.

Chaos-Caster-guide for any class:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2485596
Last edited by Lightelder on Jun 17, 2020, 10:05:11 AM
Awesome thread. I see that you covered totems and mines/traps, but what are your thoughts on the new Arcanist Brand gem? I'm curious if you think it would interact well with ED/Cont or any other CDOT?
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Hanwool wrote:
Awesome thread. I see that you covered totems and mines/traps, but what are your thoughts on the new Arcanist Brand gem? I'm curious if you think it would interact well with ED/Cont or any other CDOT?


I can give a less speculative answer as soon as the level 20 gems get published, imo I suspect two applications:

Utility: Link a bunch of stuff that you don't want to selfcast; Curses, Golems, ...
Maybe it somehow works with Smoke Mine for blinding (the movement interaction would be bonkers, most likely doesn't work)

Soulrend: All CDoTs have good to decent uptime and can be selfcast quite effortlessly. The two exceptions are Blight (imo Arcanist Brand won't function with channeling skills) and Soulrend. Having a 5-6L Arcanist Soulrend Brand could be a decent setup for mapping and for bossing, if used alongside another DoT.

Both ideas kind of depend on activation frequency, cooldown of linked skills and duration of the Brand.
GGG changes brands so that they won't just jump from enemy to enemy across the map but will have to be recast. That might make selfcasting or other workarounds (totems, triggers, ...) more effective. I'm hyped, I don't know, we'll see :)
I try this: If I disagree, I will make a sound opposing argument. It's ok to love/hate something that I hate/love. Devs know PoE better than I do. I am the only player I represent.

Chaos-Caster-guide for any class:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2485596
Last edited by Lightelder on Jun 18, 2020, 10:13:42 AM
"
Hanwool wrote:
Awesome thread. I see that you covered totems and mines/traps, but what are your thoughts on the new Arcanist Brand gem? I'm curious if you think it would interact well with ED/Cont or any other CDOT?


Now that the level 20 gems are published; *UPDATE* (elaborate answer because this reply will soonish become the Brand section of the guide^^)


I think Utility will be niche, Arcanist Soulrend Brand for mapping might be possible and Arcanist Soulrend Brand for bossing is niche or bad. Lemme explain.

I'll call it Soulbrand for now :)

Utility: Doesn't work with minions or mines, ok. Might be useful to "selfcast" 2-3 curses and you might even throw a guard skill in there, making your CwDT-setup obsolete. That would have drawbacks but could save gemslots and other investments.

Mapping: The damage penalty is very heavy and the necessity to recast brands limits the quality of life. Soulbrand seems slightly worse than ED+Contagion. A specialist build might make it work. And the quality of life of instant Brand Recalling instead of double-casting EB+Contagion might make it work, too. Arcanist Brands supported skills have "limited projectile range", we don't know yet how impactful that'll be on Soulbrand.

My hopes were on bossing, but Soulbrand falls short. Essence Drain (a compareable skill due to similar uptime and mana cost) will deal 25% more damage than Soulbrand.
Indepth-reasoning-math-incoming
We chaos casters like to use 2+ skills for boss damage and here a Soulbrand might be really good. The math on the level 20 gem:

Arcanist Brand activates once per second, Soulrend has a duration of 0.6 seconds. For 100% uptime we need some increased skill effect duration, brand activation frequency or cast speed. But this should be manageable with very little investment (Malevolence, some cast speed on gear/tree, quality on Arcanist Brand, Arcane Surge, ...). This is unproblematic.

So how about the damage:
skip-if-you-trust-my-math
Arcanist Brand:
46% less damage * 59% more damage to branded enemy
= 0.54*1.59 = 0.8586 = 14% less damage
*damage penalty on nearby monsters is much higher -> low damage for mapping

Now let's assume we replace a Void Manipulation Support (39% more damage) in our Soulrend setup with an Arcanist Brand (14% less damage). That's a very likely scenario.
1.39 * x = 0.86 -> x = 0.6187 -> 38% less damage
Replacing a damage support gem with Arcanist Brand will result in 38% less damage on level 20 gems. This tradeoff increases the unmodified Soulrend duration from measly 0.6s to 3s (Arcanist Brands attachment duration).

400% MORE DURATION for 38% less damage is the tradeoff. Mana cost of Soulrend is an issue on your build? Keeping the DoT up while dodging boss mechanics is hard and dangerous? Swapping Soulrend to Soulbrand seems ok.

BUT

Soulrend lv 20 with 38% less damage: 1202.9 damage per second
Essence Drain lv 20: 1505 damage per second
1202.9*x=1505 -> x=1.25 -> ED deals 25% more damage.
The saving grace for Soulbrand could be one of two things imo: Your build really needs the integrated ES-leech more than ED's life regen (or Banes curse utility). Or you have an immense amount of +x to gem level*. This will be the case only on niche builds if at all.

*
Arcanist Brand is an active spell skill and so is Soulrend. Both gems will profit from +x to active gems level (whereas conventional damage support gems don't). This could significantly change the 38% effective less damage for the better. But only high end characters will reach gemlevels that might make Soulbrand catch up to ED





There is a different fun idea: Arcanist Brand can support channeling skills: BLIGHTBRAND
Pro: Massive reduction of our cast time / stationary time
Con: Massive reduction of cast speed. Blight cast time: 0.3s, Blightbrand activation frequency 1s.
1.0 * x = 0.3 -> x = 0.3 -> 70% less cast speed.
To fix this, one would need the Runebinder keystone (which is a real possibility) and then this setup compares positively to Blight-Totems. I'll think about it some more :)
*edit* Blight loves Infused Channelling Support and I have absolutely no clue if that will work with Blightbrand, probably not or at least it won't grant the infusion buff.
I try this: If I disagree, I will make a sound opposing argument. It's ok to love/hate something that I hate/love. Devs know PoE better than I do. I am the only player I represent.

Chaos-Caster-guide for any class:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2485596
Last edited by Lightelder on Jun 18, 2020, 10:56:25 AM
"
There is a different fun idea: Arcanist Brand can support channeling skills: BLIGHTBRAND
Pro: Massive reduction of our cast time / stationary time
Con: Massive reduction of cast speed. Blight cast time: 0.3s, Blightbrand activation frequency 1s.
1.0 * x = 0.3 -> x = 0.3 -> 70% less cast speed.
To fix this, one would need the Runebinder keystone (which is a real possibility) and then this setup compares positively to Blight-Totems. I'll think about it some more :)
*edit* Blight loves Infused Channelling Support and I have absolutely no clue if that will work with Blightbrand, probably not or at least it won't grant the infusion buff.


Tried playing around with this idea, but unfortunately Arcanist Brand does not support channeled skills :(
Greetings.
Thanks for the great guide.
I got a newb question if u dont mind..
If I use both souldrend and essence drain with spellslinger is it ok?
As I read dot does not stack but there are some guides that uses both skills.
Thanks..

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