Wolcen Hype Release!

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Tsokushin wrote:

Now, perhaps I've rambled on, but the point I'm making is that attempting to define Wolcen's meta in context of PoE's meta is incorrect in my view. The outset of each game is fundamentally different in what they reward and attempting to bring the each respective game's meta into the other seems to result in dissatisfaction. I know this much because I've been looking for Wolcen's meta but could never find it in PoE.


Think back to the first time you discovered PoE and how you played then, what kind of posibilities you thought were possible and how grand the skill + crafting system looked.

Knowledge is a double edged sword, exactly because it removes the romantic attribute of objects it touches.

This will sound like a hollow argument and i am perfectly aware of that, but perhaps the fact that i already pushed around 75+- hours into wolcen simply means my knowledge progression is further which enables me to make better projections.

I also never argued the meta is a mirror of PoE, both are different games ultimately but similar to how people think passive tree's of general build concepts look the same in PoE the same convergence already took place in wolcen a week in.

Whats even worse in wolcen is that all builds route true most of them because they are general nodes rather then specified.

Now your fine to claim this isn't necessary to make a fun and functioning build, but then i would simply throw back that the same applies to PoE, but if you want to do wolcen paragon 189 similar to when you wanna do poe red tier maps the possible solutions to the problems shrink heavily reducing most passive lay-outs to standardized patterns which have been figured out one week into release and haven't moved since then.

Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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Boem wrote:

Think back to the first time you discovered PoE and how you played then, what kind of posibilities you thought were possible and how grand the skill + crafting system looked.

Knowledge is a double edged sword, exactly because it removes the romantic attribute of objects it touches.

This will sound like a hollow argument and i am perfectly aware of that, but perhaps the fact that i already pushed around 75+- hours into wolcen simply means my knowledge progression is further which enables me to make better projections.

I also never argued the meta is a mirror of PoE, both are different games ultimately but similar to how people think passive tree's of general build concepts look the same in PoE the same convergence already took place in wolcen a week in.

Whats even worse in wolcen is that all builds route true most of them because they are general nodes rather then specified.


It's not a hollow argument at all, and I agree that the initial impression of the poe skill tree is something else. However I wouldn't go so far as to say that it was romantic, more like information overload. In that the sheer size and scale of it was daunting upon first introduction, but most builds in PoE still boil down to Effective HP, mitigation, avoidance, and damage.

I'm over 100 hours myself in Wolcen, and while I can agree that it's very easy to take a build to the next level with a few Time Weaver talents (Cabalist isn't actually necessary, just makes things much faster), the "romantic" part is still there because of talents. Also, it's a mixed blessing that some passives don't work in that it's unfortunate that they do not function, but it's leaving a giant theorycrafting potential for me when they actually are functional. I want to see what I can make with them.

My main point in this whole "it's erroneous to apply PoE meta to Wolcen" point is that everyone keeps attempting to shove the PoE-style-thinking of passives into Wolcen.

I think I need to underline this point here. Most passives in Wolcen change how you actually approach combat. Most passives in PoE just give flat power to what you're doing. A good example of this in Wolcen is Static Transferral, wherein you're weaving Basic Attacks to build/maintain stacks and using a skill to Deplete them for the bonus. Or Disallowing Vessel allowing a ramp up for remaining stationary but also slowing you down.

Contrast this to PoE wherein most of it is simply more damage, the power to kill things faster, or take reduced damage, but in the end it still devolves into 1 shotting bosses, or getting 1 shot yourself. There's rarely an inbetween.

"

Now your fine to claim this isn't necessary to make a fun and functioning build, but then i would simply throw back that the same applies to PoE, but if you want to do wolcen paragon 189 similar to when you wanna do poe red tier maps the possible solutions to the problems shrink heavily reducing most passive lay-outs to standardized patterns which have been figured out one week into release and haven't moved since then.

Peace,

-Boem-


There's a couple of caveats here. A point I think you missed is that builds in PoE are operating under the unspoken pressure to be fast, to kill as quickly as possible because of a combination of lacking combat and how loot operates in it. Even ilvl 84 items can roll affixes meant for a level 1 character. This means the only way to progress item wise is to

1)throw as many numbers against the RNG as possible or
2)or farm up as much currency as you can (which is still essentially doing the same thing) and buy from someone who won against RNG.

Furthermore, the game is balanced from the ground up on the expectation that you'll play like this. The existence of timed trials further cements this. So, already a build that's fun and functional in PoE is required to be fast on many different levels. Let's be frank, there are 0 league starter builds that do not focus on speed. In the endgame, finding a build that doesn't 1 shot entire screens is the scant minority.

And in contrast we have Wolcen, where there's no selective pressure on speed, moreover the existence of offline play further means there's also 0 pressure on trading. That means you can generally make any build you really want and not feel left behind.

Does this mean that every build will reach 189? No. But, you only need to clear 160 to get access to the highest tiers of crafting. Also, there's a surprisingly large amount of builds that can currently clear 187. Now, some of them are not going to be as fast as the "meta" bleeding edge and that's why you rarely see them, but they are good at what they do.

I'll give you an example of a build I completed. Pugilist's Momentum from Arms Maestro gives you stun with a 2h on 4th basic attack. Roll Stun duration on every support gem slot you have, get a weapon with Frost damage main, Tracker's Reach Stun and Stasis runes and I could literally chain stun+freeze entire mob waves for any party play. Even 189 elites and bosses, with that much stun duration, the 4th basic attack will automatically stun through the full bar. Wasn't the best against unstoppable bosses, but it functioned quite well.

But this again underlines the thinking behind Wolcen and PoE. Wolcen is a combat options approach. PoE is a RNG loot grinder. Notice that people didn't want to tinker or experiment and try to make an idea of a build work in Wolcen, they tried to turn the combat into that which is found in PoE. And are oft disappointed because PoE's combat is one shot the screen for the loot and move on and they missed the fluid combat in Wolcen.

Last edited by Tsokushin on Mar 10, 2020, 8:31:47 PM
I get what your saying but it doesn't change my opinion very much.

For example your play-style argument on the passive tree interaction in PoE relates to keynodes and keystones and not to smaller passives, but it also functions within the skill gem system of PoE as opposed to wolcen not having this.

Both games proport to deliver very similar forms of engagement and being fickle about the minutiea doesn't really help anybody, it's probably why threads like this go back and forth like a volleyball game from one side to the other.

My guess is that if wolcen didn't have its hack tools already set-up to exploit the game we would see a clear speed meta in much bigger proportions because it would enable the altholism and crafting most people desire from these games.
Which is why PoE has it beyond racers, set up a speed char to collect loot and then invest in actual niche concepts, the notion that a big part of the playerbase keeps playing a speed build after they grinded the basic currency doesn't really align for me.

The one thing that wolcen has going for it as far as i can tell is that you can get some mechanics working a lot earlier then PoE which usually delays the really complex stuff towards endgame.
But from personal experience it just ended up crashing when i started making loops of effects so even that wasn't much of a boon for me.

I'm not blind to the appeal of both games, i just wanna see what happens next with wolcen and how it survives over time. For me personally it was to buggy on release given its development time already, melee seemed fine but once i went theorycrafting with spells and passives it ended up being a crash fiesta.
Hope they fix that and i will probably revisit it again in the next PoE league down-time sort of speak.

Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
"
MrSmiley21 wrote:
Your boss fights are 4+ nemesis mobs, along with a couple boss tier mobs and champs with 7-8 mods (like map mods in PoE), which are almost always (95% of the time) nerfs to your stats, or buffs to the mobs. I ran into a combo of Grava Thul (a beast by himself) + Zantarin (notorious for shotgun oneshots with vitality damage), Mooseluke (not too bad by himself, but he can freeze you easily so the others can rip you), + Archmage Alexander (has a meteor move that's notorious for oneshots, even the tankiest builds want to move to avoid this) + several random bosses and champs. Even my retaliation warlord can't beat a combo like that, and neither can the pet conjurer, because pets with 60-100k HP and max resists get ripped faster than the cooldowns to resummon the pets, which is basically a stalemate, even if I kite extremely good. Any combo with Grava Thul in it is just a bad combo, he's nearly super boss tier, hits just as hard, doesn't have the HP amount though. So there is an extreme challenge to be had in GD, as far as content goes.


4 Nem bosses in GD means you'll get multiple stacking -30% all res debuffs on you and that's why the one shots. Add 5 individual stacks of -OA -DA fumble and impaired aim, freeze stun petrify, DoTs and recovery penalties... You'll be taking crits, missing at least 50% of your skills and taking 500% more damage. Tanking 4+ nemesis or a gang of the nasty side bosses was never meant to be possible playing legit there.

If you think that 70+ Shattered Realm is a balanced endgame i call BS. It's just as busted as Delve 5000 or the Wolcen 187-189. Devs just dropped those endgames in there so poeple can't say there isn't hard content and game is too ez. Unless 200000000% more multipliers and 95% drs were implemented for every build like d3 did there is no way to balance.

Outside that retarded content imo players run "whatever" builds that look appealing to them mostly based on aesthetics or concepts and not purely on math.

If not mistaken, it was Chris Wilson who said in that "designing PoE to be played forever" talk that some hard endgames fights in PoE were just completed by a minuscule % of the players. However, it was a needed reference point and thus good to be there.

Play online games - compare yourself constantly to others - feel the need to run the most challenging content available to prove whatever - copy most OP build - get frustrated.

Play single player - don't give a shit - play whatever creative thing u like for fun - enjoy.

I think i get what you mean.


"In this game you're just a cow being milked, not a human being entertained" - Kiss_Me_Quick
Last edited by IIPheXII on Mar 10, 2020, 11:15:26 PM
Holy shit, I always assumed the Rogue bonus for Siegebreaker's Salvatory Anchor was *active* dodge. It's PASSIVE.

That's a game-changer.
I am W James Chan, author of Blackcloak: A Man of His Sword, the novel from which the PoE unique Oni-Goroshi is derived. So if you liked that, give the book a go on Amazon. I think it's pretty good -- but like Her, it isn't to be come at lightly, and it definitely isn't what it first seems to be.
"
Holy shit, I always assumed the Rogue bonus for Siegebreaker's Salvatory Anchor was *active* dodge. It's PASSIVE.

That's a game-changer.
did they fix the related bug when you equip helmet and chest of the same base type ? and even if different type, some bug with re-equipping. Remember scratching my head and then taking helmet off and re-equipping it, gained me 500 resists. lol
Last edited by grepman on Mar 11, 2020, 1:03:58 AM
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grepman wrote:
"
Holy shit, I always assumed the Rogue bonus for Siegebreaker's Salvatory Anchor was *active* dodge. It's PASSIVE.

That's a game-changer.
did they fix the related bug when you equip helmet and chest of the same base type ? and even if different type, some bug with re-equipping. Remember scratching my head and then taking helmet off and re-equipping it, gained me 500 resists. lol


I think so; there were patch notes regarding Salvatory Anchor/Elevated Gains calculations. It's very much worth reading their notes with each weekly patch.

Also, sorry for not responding to your longer post. I'm still processing the last part regarding powercreep/leap. The rest I think is a gentle agree to disagree regarding the importance of story as an underpinning to the 'replayable' part of any given game. :)
I am W James Chan, author of Blackcloak: A Man of His Sword, the novel from which the PoE unique Oni-Goroshi is derived. So if you liked that, give the book a go on Amazon. I think it's pretty good -- but like Her, it isn't to be come at lightly, and it definitely isn't what it first seems to be.
"
Holy shit, I always assumed the Rogue bonus for Siegebreaker's Salvatory Anchor was *active* dodge. It's PASSIVE.

That's a game-changer.


Seem weak compared with using a bruiser chest that give a few thousand health regeneration points or Heavy chest that could give 2 thousand resist.
"
awesome999 wrote:
"
Holy shit, I always assumed the Rogue bonus for Siegebreaker's Salvatory Anchor was *active* dodge. It's PASSIVE.

That's a game-changer.


Seem weak compared with using a bruiser chest that give a few thousand health regeneration points or Heavy chest that could give 2 thousand resist.


*shrug* It still lends a LOT of durability to a traditionally flimsy playstyle. I don't do 'compared to'. That's for people who like to break their toys too quickly and then complain to the manufacturer.
I am W James Chan, author of Blackcloak: A Man of His Sword, the novel from which the PoE unique Oni-Goroshi is derived. So if you liked that, give the book a go on Amazon. I think it's pretty good -- but like Her, it isn't to be come at lightly, and it definitely isn't what it first seems to be.
"
"
awesome999 wrote:
"
Holy shit, I always assumed the Rogue bonus for Siegebreaker's Salvatory Anchor was *active* dodge. It's PASSIVE.

That's a game-changer.


Seem weak compared with using a bruiser chest that give a few thousand health regeneration points or Heavy chest that could give 2 thousand resist.


*shrug* It still lends a LOT of durability to a traditionally flimsy playstyle. I don't do 'compared to'. That's for people who like to break their toys too quickly and then complain to the manufacturer.


Siegebreaker's Salvatory Anchor doesn't seem to be for that purpose. That skill tree literally scream face tank. Exorcist's Branded Burst probably has better synergy with dodge.

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