Atlas Changes in 3.10.0

"Note: We love reading your thoughts on our proposed changes or design philosophies. Replies are enabled in the Development Manifesto forum, but please only post constructive on-topic discussion in each of the threads. We may remove posts that are low on content or contain hateful non-constructive sentiment. This forum can be an ideal place for a dialogue about upcoming changes!"

"Improving Communication: The Development Manifesto (Please Read First!)

Communication is Important
At Grinding Gear Games, we've always treated communication with the community as a priority. I spend several hours of each day on external communication (that's not counting answering emails), but feel that we can still improve the way that we communicate with you guys. This article explains some of the ways that we're planning on improving communication in the short term:

The Development Manifesto
The purpose of this development manifesto forum is for us to open topics on specific issues that we're working on so that we can explain how they're going to work. It's also a great place to discuss specific design philosophies that we base many of our decisions around. Please note that there are still plenty of topics that will be posted! This initial set are just the ones that we have ready in the first pass. More will be added in the coming days/weeks.

How Manifesto Updates Will Work
Initially, the manifesto will be updated by adding more topics. As they become out of date, we'll update the existing posts to make sure that they always accurately reflect our current line of thinking on those issues. When there's a meaningful update to a manifest post, I'll mention it in the daily news. Keep an eye on both that forum and this one to stay up to date :)

Explanations in Patch Notes
Starting with update 1.1.2b, our patch notes have included much more detailed explanations of changes than before. A lot of thinking goes into any rebalancing that we do, so we're going to be as detailed about this process as possible. In some cases, a rebalance may be foreshadowed by a post in this development manifesto forum, so that people are aware of it in advance.

"Daily News
We post an update in the news every New Zealand weekday. Sometimes it's about a new game feature, other times it's about an upcoming patch or microtransaction. I'm very proud that we've kept this routine up for so long, because so much of our feedback comes from news posts. They're a great place for us to reach out with updates about small topics or to call out awesome community efforts. We will continue these daily news posts.

Build of the Week
These are an incredibly powerful marketing tool, so we've resumed releasing one per week.

Note: We love reading your thoughts on our proposed changes or design philosophies. Replies are enabled in the Development Manifesto forum, but please only post constructive on-topic discussion in each of the threads. We may remove posts that are low on content or contain hateful non-constructive sentiment. This forum can be an ideal place for a dialogue about upcoming changes!"

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/889671

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Develop Happiness
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Develop Happiness
Last edited by Eternaltier on Mar 4, 2020, 4:17:37 AM
"
Elhazzared wrote:
To resume.

We don't want as many high tier maps dropping cause people are crying about other content feeling less rewarding.

We lowered higher tier map drop chances and we feel it's good now.

Let me tell you what you didn't test GGG. You didn't test if the majority of the players feel this is good. I for one was never happy with map sustain and many like me werent. Map sustain should be EASELY archievable by raring a map. That it! No sextants needed, no chisels needed, no other content like temple or delve needed. Doing maps and getting more maps that are of equal or higher tier should be the natural course.

Other type of content should have their own rewards and not be profitable through giving maps, if anything that should be a bonus at best. Similarly, sextants, chisels, awakening and so on should be BONUS. it shouldn't be the way to get the map sustain.

Similarly but on a different topic that is related to mapping. When are we gonna get the balance changes that PoE needs? In the last... i dunno, at least 2 years, the balance has been horrible. The game has been getting harder, being able top do nay kind of high level content requires more and more expensive gear which means less and less people can do it. This can't be a good balance when you put artificial barriers to prevent the vast majority of the player base from having access to high tier content.

I'm not even talking about Delve or Awakener. I'm talking the abillity to even do high tier maps.

Most people cannot farm a few douzen exalts to finish a build. Most just don't have the time to dedicate to PoE that it requires for ludicrous profits. Most don't even have a ghood knowledge of the market and frankly I think they shouldn't need to be able to enjoy the game. And then we add that the vast majority of player, while wanting fast clear speeds, they kinda still want to take it at their own pace. It's rare for a player to clear maps in less than 5 minutes. Most people, even if they have a build capable of doing it, probably will still take 10 to 20 minutes per map because they want to have fun.

However it's hard to have fun when even the most basic of high level content is barred. I mean, GGG already made it so that drops are not fun. Most people don't bother picking up rares or identifying them cause the likelyhood of them being good is abismal and it's more profitable to just pick up currency and meta uniques. So you know, maybe make the game fun again GGG? You know, remember when hiero got reworked and totems worked on a budget? Remember when traps worked on a budget? You may think, damn people were beating end game content with budget builds but you know what was far more important than silly notions like that? People were having fun!


So what I get from this, according to your very scientific research the vast majority of players wants to get maximum rewards for minimum investment. Everything should just be easy and free and achievable for the worst players within a week. You're talking bout diablo 3. Go play diablo 3 honestly.
"some players can't farm a few dozen exalts" like, that's the point, you gotta get good to be good. If you don't spend any time, thought or dedication to a game you SHOULD see no results. Don't even claim you even put thought into it too because if you really did you would notice map drops aren't necessarily nerfed but just shifted back into the side content a little so players that actually want to play the game have a reason to. Like around 5% ADDITIVE mapdrop bonus lost boohoo, run the side area. Given a map of 400 monsters and a tiny side area of just 50 monsters you just got a 12.5% MULTIPLICATIVE bonus back, just by killing more shit which you essentially should've done anyway but probably didn't given you can't farm a dozen exalts in a league apparently let alone a week or so. Then when time really is an issue and you can only play an couple hours every league, why the f are you playing league then, there's a standard mode that doesn't remove your progress every 3 months.
"
LordOfShadow wrote:
stop nerfing things, dont nerf map drop.


They fricken buffed it. In 3.9 already! And I was always having more maps than I did in 3.8. But I guess they were not being dropped for free from the sky so people STILL complained over map drops.

I also had the most unique map drops Ive ever had.

Now they buffed it again.

What exactly did you not read????
dev kontol berak
...
* Forum Avatar - $500USD
... -- Bex_GGG
Hey GGG.

It really is quite simple here.

You have always treated map drops like they're some kind of golden super high tier reward that you should have to grind your eyeballs out to get. This is the wrong attitude.

The year is 2020, people's average attention spans are dwindling at a rapid pace, down to almost 4 seconds before you lose someone's interest. If you don't feed players a constant source of end game mapping, they're going to become BORED and QUIT.

This should trigger a flag to you, even from a business model, where you want to maximize player retention and interest to sell more MTX. You do this by providing a positive reward system, aka the flooding of maps to keep the player interested.

Let people run T15 beachhead 24/7 all day every day.

Let people farm T16s until their CPU case fans burn out.

Let people endlessly farm Delve, remove Sulphite entirely, it is a stupid gating system.

Remove all "gating" systems and let everything run crazy and free.

Stop trying to treat Sirus as some super ultimate grind fest end game boss that requires 300 maps to spawn. That is quite silly. In Diablo 2 you could just farm Diablo endlessly without spawning influence and other nonsense.

Over and out.
Last edited by xeotech on Mar 4, 2020, 4:28:09 AM
"In Conquerors of the Atlas, we dramatically and somewhat inadvertently increased the map drop rate, through the following mechanisms:"

And then the list goes on.

Are people blind? What map drop nerf?

For crying out loud if you can't put the time to play the content don't bloody play the content. Go play D3. Better yet, go play Wolcen on offline mode and fiddle with the save files to have everything unlocked without even playing at all. My god its mind blowing how some people still don't get it.


Great work GGG. Keep it up. And don't bring back Cartographer Seals in any way. No thanks.

And don't bring back single map farming. Whoever wants to single farm maps is in the wrong game and doesn't even understand what rng drop rates are all about to begin with.... the backbone to an arpg. They should go play something completely irrelevant.

This game thrived because it didn't hand things over for free. Don't start now. Its already at a good spot.

Increasing chances the way you did is nice, creating more determined results is also nice. And that is good enough. If you keep listening to some of these baboons we are going to end up getting 10 maps free of our choice every day alongside the atlas missions that we get for free, just for showing up. That is primarily what they are asking for at this point.
"
HazaRdReborN wrote:
"
LordOfShadow wrote:
stop nerfing things, dont nerf map drop.


They fricken buffed it. In 3.9 already! And I was always having more maps than I did in 3.8. But I guess they were not being dropped for free from the sky so people STILL complained over map drops.


They haven't buffed anything.

The current Atlas progression has been designed in such a way in which if you want to get extremely valuable rewards - the REGULAR map drops need to become more random (and thus - useless) as the player progresses.

Players are forced through the bonuses that do impact the access to the most rewarding stuff - to give up the control over Atlas (and what drops at what tier) by bringing every region up to tier 14-16, with 4 socketed watchstones in every watchtower.

But in doing so players are effectively slashing their IIQ when it comes to map drops with every fully upgraded watchtower because they're throwing more and more useless map layouts into the t14-t16 drop pool, up to awakened level 8 and thus - severely diluting their chances to obtain higher tiered maps with good layouts/density/rewards (like div cards, etc).

In other words - GGG is forcing players to upgrade all the regions up to tier 14-16 and thus - to give up the control over Atlas, to pollute their map drop pool with bad map layouts, while blocking all lower map tier drops (1-13) AND.. at the same time - they're severely nerfing the tier 14-16 map drops overall (see the recent changes)..

All you get is less control and effectively LESS map drops as you progress.

Now - compare the current convoluted mess that you (and other people that praise it) don't understand at all (judging by your comments) to the old atlas with unshaping orbs..

But yeah - the devs don't understand the impact of their own design choices, so why should you.

"
If there are any other problematic mods other than ailments, please let us know and we'll look at those too.
Last edited by jewelsy2 on Mar 4, 2020, 4:44:45 AM
"
xeotech wrote:
Hey GGG.

It really is quite simple here.

You have always treated map drops like they're some kind of golden super high tier reward that you should have to grind your eyeballs out to get. This is the wrong attitude.

The year is 2020, people's average attention spans are dwindling at a rapid pace, down to almost 4 seconds before you lose someone's interest. If you don't feed players a constant source of end game mapping, they're going to become BORED and QUIT.

This should trigger a flag to you, even from a business model, where you want to maximize player retention and interest to sell more MTX. You do this by providing a positive reward system, aka the flooding of maps to keep the player interested.

Let people run T15 beachhead 24/7 all day every day.

Let people farm T16s until their CPU case fans burn out.

Let people endlessly farm Delve, remove Sulphite entirely, it is a stupid gating system.

Remove all "gating" systems and let everything run crazy and free.

Stop trying to treat Sirus as some super ultimate grind fest end game boss that requires 300 maps to spawn. That is quite silly. In Diablo 2 you could just farm Diablo endlessly without spawning influence and other nonsense.

Over and out.


No, no and no. People with short attention spans dont belong in this game. People with short attention spans did not "build" this game and support it. People with short attention spans STILL wont play this game from the passive tree alone to the currency items to the crafting. What you are babbling about is irrelevant. Yeah, its 2020, and we are happy to have one developer that gets it and sticks to the routes from 2000 and improves on those and finds interesting ways to expand on them.

Not every game has to be for the mainstream attention span. If that is all that matters, go play the next Fortnite and stop posting feedback. This is the very mentality that will kill the game.

Meanwhile, there are already casual argps out there. Any simple thinking person should be able to understand that you don't stay alive in a competition by offering the same things the competition is offering. PoE is doing its own thing, and THAT is what makes it loved and different.

Those that want a different kind of game, there is nothing wrong with that and it is a matter of personal subjective taste. There are titles out there for them. They should try them out. Trying however to change a game from what it is to what it never intended to be is not right, and rather backward.

Its the same as jumping into a racing simulator and complaining about attention spans and the realism of the game and ask for them to make it into a new arcade racer instead.

In the wrong place if that is how you feel and if that is your suggestion for the game going forward.

Thankfully, from what they show, GGG gets this. So fingers crossed they never forget it.

edit: Also in D2 there was no end game period. You are comparing apples to oranges. You want a proper comparison? Kitava is your end story boss (equivalent of Diablo, or Baal). Difference is, PoE has actual end game which starts at that point. Again, apples and oranges. Your comparison is just not a relevant one.
Last edited by HazaRdReborN on Mar 4, 2020, 4:57:53 AM
"
DarkenX wrote:
How does one fix Map tiers and such? SIMPLE! Make Maps a single drop, and the Atlas a giant chess board of sorts, where you take, say, a Tier 2 Map, and simply place it over any Tier 2 zone that you wish to travel to. Imagine, not having to hunt or pray to the Gods of RNG that the 3 Tier 1 Maps you have will upgrade to the one you want.

Imagine a static Map drop, that you just slot into a giant map of possible travel sites. BAM. No more hunting, no more overpricing specific, hard to find maps.


This is a rather good idea
"
We want players to earn map completion and bonuses objectives and to feel good about having them. Cartographer's Seals worked directly against this.


Why not make the seal's disable the map its used on it, so granting the completion bonus but is excluded from the drop table such a simple solution would already make things like 1000% better.
Last edited by mistsack on Mar 4, 2020, 5:05:51 AM

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