Atlas Changes in 3.10.0

A thought: The change requires us to complete specific maps in order to progress with the Conquerors and Sirus, which would make people farm maps just so that they can wait one of the necessary maps to drop - or spend currency hoping to transform into that map. Their main focus would be to continue the Conqueror progress, and the maps they do along the way will be seen as a distraction - especially because trading is an alternative to farming.

But... Maybe the idea here is to make people focus on completing maps for its own sake?

It's kinda hard to get into that mood when you're just waiting for a map to drop, and you know that you can trade for it, though. This just moves the non-determinism to map drops (which you can skip by trading for maps, which everyone hates doing).

A common reason why people are unhappy with this is that when you complete a good map, and it drops no good maps, so they just wasted their time (and in fact it was a net negative).

Here's an idea: make it hard, but more deterministic to spawn Conquerors. Something like this (not necessarily with the exact numbers): You need to complete 5-20 maps in an area in order to spawn a Conqueror; completing each map is guaranteed to progress towards that goal, but the amount of progress can be small or large, but cannot be zero. This removes the frustration of knowing that you completed a map for no gain, but maintains the excitement from knowing that you can make a lot of progress with this one map. The average can remain the same - in exchange for getting that guarantee, we'd lose some of the chance of getting lucky. This also removes the need to trade for maps.

Hello there!

I don't think that removing cartographer's seal made a lot of changes to target farming maps. As we saw in metamorph, people were just creating a new account and made their atlas in order to sustain the map they want. By removing cartographer's seal, you just made the map sustain longer to set up but not impossible. I don't really know if you should make the map sustain impossible but if not, make it easier to set up because people are just going to do it if it's not impossible,so there's any reason to make it as annoying as that to set up. And by removing the map sustain, magic finder characters will lost popularity and won't be able to be as efficient as ther were previously (especially conserning div card target farming).

Hope you'll make adjustments to map sustain before delirium league,
jer1993 wrote:
Elhazzared wrote:
To resume.

We don't want as many high tier maps dropping cause people are crying about other content feeling less rewarding.

We lowered higher tier map drop chances and we feel it's good now.

Let me tell you what you didn't test GGG. You didn't test if the majority of the players feel this is good. I for one was never happy with map sustain and many like me werent. Map sustain should be EASELY archievable by raring a map. That it! No sextants needed, no chisels needed, no other content like temple or delve needed. Doing maps and getting more maps that are of equal or higher tier should be the natural course.

Other type of content should have their own rewards and not be profitable through giving maps, if anything that should be a bonus at best. Similarly, sextants, chisels, awakening and so on should be BONUS. it shouldn't be the way to get the map sustain.

Similarly but on a different topic that is related to mapping. When are we gonna get the balance changes that PoE needs? In the last... i dunno, at least 2 years, the balance has been horrible. The game has been getting harder, being able top do nay kind of high level content requires more and more expensive gear which means less and less people can do it. This can't be a good balance when you put artificial barriers to prevent the vast majority of the player base from having access to high tier content.

I'm not even talking about Delve or Awakener. I'm talking the abillity to even do high tier maps.

Most people cannot farm a few douzen exalts to finish a build. Most just don't have the time to dedicate to PoE that it requires for ludicrous profits. Most don't even have a ghood knowledge of the market and frankly I think they shouldn't need to be able to enjoy the game. And then we add that the vast majority of player, while wanting fast clear speeds, they kinda still want to take it at their own pace. It's rare for a player to clear maps in less than 5 minutes. Most people, even if they have a build capable of doing it, probably will still take 10 to 20 minutes per map because they want to have fun.

However it's hard to have fun when even the most basic of high level content is barred. I mean, GGG already made it so that drops are not fun. Most people don't bother picking up rares or identifying them cause the likelyhood of them being good is abismal and it's more profitable to just pick up currency and meta uniques. So you know, maybe make the game fun again GGG? You know, remember when hiero got reworked and totems worked on a budget? Remember when traps worked on a budget? You may think, damn people were beating end game content with budget builds but you know what was far more important than silly notions like that? People were having fun!

So what I get from this, according to your very scientific research the vast majority of players wants to get maximum rewards for minimum investment. Everything should just be easy and free and achievable for the worst players within a week. You're talking bout diablo 3. Go play diablo 3 honestly.
"some players can't farm a few dozen exalts" like, that's the point, you gotta get good to be good. If you don't spend any time, thought or dedication to a game you SHOULD see no results. Don't even claim you even put thought into it too because if you really did you would notice map drops aren't necessarily nerfed but just shifted back into the side content a little so players that actually want to play the game have a reason to. Like around 5% ADDITIVE mapdrop bonus lost boohoo, run the side area. Given a map of 400 monsters and a tiny side area of just 50 monsters you just got a 12.5% MULTIPLICATIVE bonus back, just by killing more shit which you essentially should've done anyway but probably didn't given you can't farm a dozen exalts in a league apparently let alone a week or so. Then when time really is an issue and you can only play an couple hours every league, why the f are you playing league then, there's a standard mode that doesn't remove your progress every 3 months.

Seriously this "git gud" mentality got to stop when commenting on other players. Ironically as someone who has between last league and this one, four characters above 95 (100, 98 95 and 95), I feel the person you commented on have some legitimate points to make. Should people weigh my ideas more simply because I play more and "better"? I don't think so.

Talking about map drop rates and equate this to "rewards" simply does not make sense. That is very the problem shown by the devs in this manifesto. When maps don't drop, people need to STOP playing the game to acquire maps in order to continue, which is very disruptive to the experience. That is something the devs don't want to acknowledge right now, and it simply makes no sense.
People might have a lot of T14+ maps dropping this league but because you can't force certain maps to drop, a lot of those drops are shitty layout maps that they will never be run anyway.

So decreasing the map drop rate and not allowing people to target farm maps is going to make a lot of people quit sooner. Having an abundance of map drops this league so people could just ignore the bad map layouts just hid an underlying problem which will come to light as soon as map drop rates are nerfed.
Good changes, i like it.
I'm curious about the new improved temple of atzoatl. By the end of the league i had around 200 Alva missions. It's too tidious and random.
Bex_GGG wrote:
Delirium being a high-reward league if you take risks

The nature of the risk is more important than the degree of the risk, Bex. There is a HUGE difference between the two:

A. Careless players are far more likely to die.
B. Unlucky dice rollers are far more likely to die.

GGG's seemingly perennial conflation of A and B is perhaps a distilled description of the design decisions that most consistently enrage players, new and old alike.

I hope you someday can adequately convey this fundamental concept to the team. They need to understand it before they can design around it well.
Farewell, fellow exiles. New hopes are on the horizon, and we may yet see a worthy successor to D2.
Wow, it sure seems like a lot of people are upset with the changes to the Atlas - either with the 3.9 overhaul or the bonus completion nerf. Gee, if there were only another endgame system already in the game that could mitigate dissension with unpopular changes. Probably too hard to implement, though.
Being toxic in the forums is fine, but pointing out someone is being toxic gets your post nuked and a stern talking to from Support.
Just bring back the Atlas manipulation mechanics, let us decide which maps we want to run and you got me back in the game supporting it.
We haven't had problems with map sustain since at least legacy.
And your answer is to drop even more maps.
Like this:
Players playing the league commented that Delve cities did not feel rewarding any more (because in the past they were a great source of Maps). Similar comments were made about the Temple of Atzoatl, which was also a good place to find maps in the past.

Your post-league integration and maintenance is just complete shit. That's why they are not rewarding. Delve feels completely unrewarding because it still requires 300+ depth (more like 600) to even feel good for side rewards. Cities didn't even drop T16 Boss maps. To be fair it proabbly still is the most rewarding content, but also the most mind numbing. There is not a single interesting room that doesn't make you vomit while holding a button for 1-2 minutes without moving or waiting for monsters to spawn (except the wolf's den). I mean, the concept doesn't have to be 500iq genius level, just don't make them ass across the board. They don't have to drop riches, but it's faster to just log out and not get the shit node instead of waiting for xy to spawn.
Same with the Temple. The mechanic of upgrading the temple is bad. The rooms themselves are bad (except the T3 corruption). The quantity is bad, the pack size kinda, too.
It doesn't help that your master system is still ass. The reward gap between masters is too high. Unveiling is a system that should've been tied to master xp, if at all. Bestiary is so irrelevant you couldn't be bothered to put a stash there for one year.
Sadly nothing will change since you made rewards generic. Everything can drop from anything. You'll even go so far to flush more down the players with Delirium. Resulting in us getting more rewards and everything else still feeling pointless. It's like pre-nerf Torment, but without the effort. It doesn't have to be a marathon, but let players use the items you give them, like sextants. Want more map drops? Tie them to sextants and make them drop accordingly.
Pull out the rewards and put them in an endgame that was actually designed to be that. Not 5 bosses that were designed with half a brain (seriously, even though they are cool, you put the worst mechanics imaginable in those bosses). Or maybe get rid of the idea that your endgame needs some incredibly stupid boss farming. There are more things to do.
You could easily tie the masters to the awakening level. Higher sulphite %, chance for red beasts, chance new temple to spawn with higher lvl rooms, something something unveil, and so on. Obviously not the best suggestion, but it's likely that I put more thought into this than a multimillion chinese company.
HazaRdReborN wrote:
xeotech wrote:
Hey GGG.

It really is quite simple here.

You have always treated map drops like they're some kind of golden super high tier reward that you should have to grind your eyeballs out to get. This is the wrong attitude.

The year is 2020, people's average attention spans are dwindling at a rapid pace, down to almost 4 seconds before you lose someone's interest. If you don't feed players a constant source of end game mapping, they're going to become BORED and QUIT.

This should trigger a flag to you, even from a business model, where you want to maximize player retention and interest to sell more MTX. You do this by providing a positive reward system, aka the flooding of maps to keep the player interested.

Let people run T15 beachhead 24/7 all day every day.

Let people farm T16s until their CPU case fans burn out.

Let people endlessly farm Delve, remove Sulphite entirely, it is a stupid gating system.

Remove all "gating" systems and let everything run crazy and free.

Stop trying to treat Sirus as some super ultimate grind fest end game boss that requires 300 maps to spawn. That is quite silly. In Diablo 2 you could just farm Diablo endlessly without spawning influence and other nonsense.

Over and out.

No, no and no. People with short attention spans dont belong in this game. People with short attention spans did not "build" this game and support it. People with short attention spans STILL wont play this game from the passive tree alone to the currency items to the crafting. What you are babbling about is irrelevant. Yeah, its 2020, and we are happy to have one developer that gets it and sticks to the routes from 2000 and improves on those and finds interesting ways to expand on them.

Not every game has to be for the mainstream attention span. If that is all that matters, go play the next Fortnite and stop posting feedback. This is the very mentality that will kill the game.

Meanwhile, there are already casual argps out there. Any simple thinking person should be able to understand that you don't stay alive in a competition by offering the same things the competition is offering. PoE is doing its own thing, and THAT is what makes it loved and different.

Those that want a different kind of game, there is nothing wrong with that and it is a matter of personal subjective taste. There are titles out there for them. They should try them out. Trying however to change a game from what it is to what it never intended to be is not right, and rather backward.

Its the same as jumping into a racing simulator and complaining about attention spans and the realism of the game and ask for them to make it into a new arcade racer instead.

In the wrong place if that is how you feel and if that is your suggestion for the game going forward.

Thankfully, from what they show, GGG gets this. So fingers crossed they never forget it.

edit: Also in D2 there was no end game period. You are comparing apples to oranges. You want a proper comparison? Kitava is your end story boss (equivalent of Diablo, or Baal). Difference is, PoE has actual end game which starts at that point. Again, apples and oranges. Your comparison is just not a relevant one.


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