It's time to buff ranger side of tree survivability

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if someone asks ranger part of the tree to get more life - sure, but give some of your damage back (including easy access to accuracy via DEX)
They basically already have been losing quite a bit of damage the last couple of leagues. Monster life increases, Tornado shot being nerfed, and more difficult access (no longer really SSF viable) to high end bleed bows seemed to hurt bows quite a bit. I'm no expert of course, I don't play bow builds very often but that seems to be the case from an outside perspective.
if anything bow builds are even cheaper to start going and stronger (and bow bleed is Glad or Champion, not ranger).

mostly due to the 'ring' jewels allowing for EXTREMELY efficient cherry-picking of very strong nodes (that shadow-ranger area has lots of), SICK awakened supports and cluster jewels

mob hp increase is meaningless when you one shot them from afar anyway. not to mention cluster jewel nodes like Blast Freeze (freeze proliferation) made bow builds (that are heavy on cold damage in most cases) SUPER SAFE. it is pretty damn sick how much of a difference that one notable makes

(plus all the warcry notables that take all the melee defensive stuff and give it freely to any class..)

no, rangers and ranged in general do not need anything on top of that
anotherthing that changed over the years is actually the value of eva

dodge and block are fine
block needs more investment but can reach better values

the problem is armor vs eva
armor has the drawback to not work against ele dmg
eva has "doesnt work against spells or unavoidable dmg" as a drawback

the things that cant be evaded has gone up a lot

with all the regen and leech with have in the game its often better and safer to less eHP using armor than using a high eHP on eva, as long as the difference isnt too big
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ciel289 wrote:
anotherthing that changed over the years is actually the value of eva

dodge and block are fine
block needs more investment but can reach better values

the problem is armor vs eva
armor has the drawback to not work against ele dmg
eva has "doesnt work against spells or unavoidable dmg" as a drawback

the things that cant be evaded has gone up a lot

with all the regen and leech with have in the game its often better and safer to less eHP using armor than using a high eHP on eva, as long as the difference isnt too big
the reason people use armour is molten shell. and block + armour has mitigation in it while acro + eva is pure rng

yes, evasion protects less, but ever since dodge and block can work on any non-dot indirect damage, dodge is really good. the problem is in todays poe rng avoidance is not enough. you need active mitigation as well.
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grepman wrote:
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ciel289 wrote:
anotherthing that changed over the years is actually the value of eva

dodge and block are fine
block needs more investment but can reach better values

the problem is armor vs eva
armor has the drawback to not work against ele dmg
eva has "doesnt work against spells or unavoidable dmg" as a drawback

the things that cant be evaded has gone up a lot

with all the regen and leech with have in the game its often better and safer to less eHP using armor than using a high eHP on eva, as long as the difference isnt too big
the reason people use armour is molten shell. and block + armour has mitigation in it while acro + eva is pure rng

yes, evasion protects less, but ever since dodge and block can work on any non-dot indirect damage, dodge is really good. the problem is in todays poe rng avoidance is not enough. you need active mitigation as well.


if i understand you right,you are making a mistake by assuming eva charrs are using dodge.

i´m not saying you are missunderstanding the mechanics. its only to make clear that i only want to compare eva vs armor and not eva+dodge vs armor+block.

there are 2 things in the game that hard counter eva. these things are the "spell" tag and resolute technique

monsters,exiles and bosses that use these things have drastically increased over the years making eva far less valueable than before

atm i would say eva is still ok with all the end charge/fortify/conversion options when it comes to incoming dmg.
however there is 1 thing that was very noticeable this league and that is stun.

this might be a result just from the buff monsters get during delirium,but since its gona go core (i´m sure they will add it) they should take a look at it.

just adding a flask mod "cannot be stunned during flask effect" would be enough. i know there is the pantheon,but it only stops stuns after you have been stuned

things without a clear counter are bad game designs imo,thats why some of the delirium debuffs are a failure.
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ciel289 wrote:


if i understand you right,you are making a mistake by assuming eva charrs are using dodge.

most characters on the right side of tree take acro. many in hardcore setting take acro and still take IR for the armour. and yes, it confirms that evasion is in the moment less reliable than armour.


"
its only to make clear that i only want to compare eva vs armor and not eva+dodge vs armor+block.

fair enough


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monsters,exiles and bosses that use these things have drastically increased over the years making eva far less valueable than before

I agree.

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there are 2 things in the game that hard counter eva. these things are the "spell" tag and resolute technique

ok, and armour doesnt protect against anything non-physical. isnt it the (wait, let me bold it) hard counter ?

your point would have some semblance if evasion was the only thing in the game where things like RT and spell damage would not apply. but its not.

in the context of comparing pure evasion vs pure armour, literally all non-physical damage hits you all the time. and the higher the initial hit, the less effective armour stacking becomes.

armour used to be trash until molten shell (and VMS) came along and allowed long-duration extra ehp buff.
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grepman wrote:


in the context of comparing pure evasion vs pure armour, literally all non-physical damage hits you all the time. and the higher the initial hit, the less effective armour stacking becomes.

armour used to be trash until molten shell (and VMS) came along and allowed long-duration extra ehp buff.


Non physical damage is usually elemental or chaos, for both there is a general way of mitigating them, in the case of elemental it's also very accessible.

Physical damage is the crux in this game and the cause behind most oneshots that people experience because it's very common, can reach very high values (10k+) and for non armor builds it's extremely difficult to guard against it. Damage conversion and flat reduction are the only measures here and both aren't exactly accessible, at least not in the quantities you would need. If your 5k life Shadow/Ranger get's hit by a 10k damage hit it doesn't matter at all if he even has 3 endurance charges and 20% conversion, he is still dead. He'd be dead even at 6k.

It's also not correct that armor gets weaker the higher the damage goes, you just need armor values that match the incoming damage. You can't expect to mitigate Shaper slams with 4k armor. Try 40k and it works like a charm.

I agree that VMS plays a huge role in armors popularity and rightfully so, but imo it's not the only reason. Going evasion leaves you incredibly vulnerable to physical damage which is everywhere and there is little to nothing you can do about it.
Last edited by Baharoth15 on Apr 15, 2020, 1:45:36 AM
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Baharoth15 wrote:


Non physical damage is usually elemental or chaos, for both there is a general way of mitigating them, in the case of elemental it's also very accessible.

I wouldnt call max resists too accessible. max chaos resists is also not too accessible. the game is based around having 75% ele resists.

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Physical damage is the crux in this game and the cause behind most oneshots that people experience because it's very common, can reach very high values (10k+)

it really isn't. pre-uber elder times, the only sources of big one shot in poe used to be pure phys slow bosses and izaro. sure, it changed a little bit over last few years, but for example, for metamorph, dots and ele scaling off base phys were far more problematic than big phys hits. in delirium, its more hits coming at you so armour helps against those smaller to mid

a lot of people die to spells and ele projectiles as well. in fact, I would argue more people die to multiproj aoe spells and ele overlap than straight phys one shots (except for those legion archers, they deal a lot of phys)

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and for non armor builds it's extremely difficult to guard against it. Damage conversion and flat reduction are the only measures here and both aren't exactly accessible, at least not in the quantities you would need. If your 5k life Shadow/Ranger get's hit by a 10k damage hit it doesn't matter at all if he even has 3 endurance charges and 20% conversion, he is still dead. He'd be dead even at 6k.

a 10k hit after 3 ecs and 20% conversion ? those values are barely in the game. legion archers in t16 and bosses like argus/shaper/and endgame bosses. maybe.
I could eat a shaper slam on a trickster with 6k hp before.

"

It's also not correct that armor gets weaker the higher the damage goes, you just need armor values that match the incoming damage. You can't expect to mitigate Shaper slams with 4k armor. Try 40k and it works like a charm.
first, I didnt say what you said. what I said is that investment in armour gives worse returns the more you stack it, against big hits. its not a linear correlation. the higher the incoming damage, the more armour you have to stack to reach the same % of mitigation compared to the smaller incoming damage hit.

again, most people have just enough armour to near max out vms with a granite, IR+jade and some armour on gear.
Evasion in general is just not in a good spot right now, it just happens that rangers also have the lowest life/es nodes out of everyone else's starting points.

With the new vms rework, stacking armor is actually now competitive with es's survivability, but evasion is still kind of left in the dust. And it will continue getting further behind when ggg adds more and more 1 shot mechanics behind core league content.

I mean the options aren't that hard to imagine:

1. I can stack an assload of es and sprinkle a decent amount of damage reductions here and there which makes the build near unkillable
2. I can stack armor and generate a 10k shield at will, or a 30k shield when I fight a boss
3. I can stack evasion and eat a dick when rng screws you.

On top of that, the right side of the passive tree presents very little ways to stack direct damage reductions and instead the player is given a bunch of more binary defenses which doesn't help with the underlying problem with evasion at all.
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MasterTBC wrote:
They should massively buff HP/ per level to put less pressure on builds to get as many life nodes as possible


This sounds reasonable to me.

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