It's time to buff ranger side of tree survivability

Armour without VMS is worthless. Simple as that.


it will never save you more than 1/10 of armour value (so you need 20000 to save 2000 in the best of circumstances).

getting 20000+ armour is very situational and while possible has HUGE opportunity cost. partly because AR/%AR are prefixes and these colide heavily with 'good' rolls (various influences and life/%life), partly due to completely WORTHLESS %AR nodes with meaningless values and mostly due to other options being simply better

Armour got hit by recent 'defensive' power creep: minimum endurance charges, warcry bonanza for everyone, fortify effect, relatively easy to obtain phys-as-element rolls on gear, flat %PDR everywhere etc etc

and if you get hit by 10000 flat phys (that is rarely phys only btw) you need A LOT of AR for a chance to survive that. with all that investment worthless during the remaining 99% of gameplay


the final nail: what class has easiest 20k+ AR? Jugg? no. Slayer? no. Champion? no.

Guardian.

and that right there is bs because that 20k comes at almost no additional cost. that cannot be said for ie Gladiator - getting 20k as Glad (with below equips - not great, but that is an old char, pre-power-creep'ish)


is surprisngly not-easy (and not worth it in the end)


tl;dr: Armour is very, very costly to get to a level when it matters. unlike Evasion (hello BLIND with one jewel) you need to consciously (over)spend for it and be inevitably disappointed anyway
"
grepman wrote:

I wouldnt call max resists too accessible. max chaos resists is also not too accessible. the game is based around having 75% ele resists.

it really isn't. pre-uber elder times, the only sources of big one shot in poe used to be pure phys slow bosses and izaro. sure, it changed a little bit over last few years, but for example, for metamorph, dots and ele scaling off base phys were far more problematic than big phys hits. in delirium, its more hits coming at you so armour helps against those smaller to mid

a lot of people die to spells and ele projectiles as well. in fact, I would argue more people die to multiproj aoe spells and ele overlap than straight phys one shots (except for those legion archers, they deal a lot of phys)

a 10k hit after 3 ecs and 20% conversion ? those values are barely in the game. legion archers in t16 and bosses like argus/shaper/and endgame bosses. maybe.
I could eat a shaper slam on a trickster with 6k hp before.

first, I didnt say what you said. what I said is that investment in armour gives worse returns the more you stack it, against big hits. its not a linear correlation. the higher the incoming damage, the more armour you have to stack to reach the same % of mitigation compared to the smaller incoming damage hit.

again, most people have just enough armour to near max out vms with a granite, IR+jade and some armour on gear.


I was only talkin about normal capped resis, not about extended amounts of max resis. Literally any char has 75 or 76 all ele res which is enough to avoid 1 shots from elemental damage in most cases, notable exceptions being stuff like Atziri.

So because Metamorphs did ele damage physical is not a problem? Sorry but I have no clue what your statement is based on. Pretty much every map boss and endgame boss does at least 50% physical damage, "Allies do significantly more physical damage" is one of the more dangerous rare mods. If someone got oneshot somewhere chances are that a large percent of the damage taken was physical (not damage dealt mind you. Given a 10k damage hit with 50% elemental conversion your average build will take 4-5k physical damage and 12xx elemental damage because of the lack of physical mitigation on most builds). As mentioned above, with 75% res and ~5k life you will hardly ever get oneshot from elemental damage. Chaos and Physical damage are the sources that most people aren't prepared for.

I was talking about 10k base damage, as that's about the value that most map bosses have in high red maps. With 3 end charges and 20% conversion you take about 68% of that so without further measures you need 7k life to survive that.

I am sure that most people stack armor mostly for VMS because that's an obviously strong mechanic. Doesn't change the fact that armor as a defensive mechanic is vastly underrated, even without VMS. The post above this one can serve as prove for that. Many people would die significantly less if they paid a bit more attention to it/physical reduction in general.


@ Sid the day may come where I read one of your posts and don't get the feeling that you are playing an entirely different game, but I guess today is not that day.
Last edited by Baharoth15 on Apr 15, 2020, 8:42:55 AM
different game?

with the gear above (it is nothing great but not far from the standard AR based gear btw) and some other rolls like +500 AR from belt etc you get 6500 native AR rating

to get 20000 you need how much %Armour from passives?

+200%

average %AR node is ~13% and major have ~27%.

thats a lot of nodes to get 'somewhere' with AR. you can get some 'by accident' but accidents are just that.

not to mention that there are just TWO Armour related nodes that are of any value and one MOST melee players take (Soul of Steel - obvious one, Sanctum of Thought - less crit damage taken/curse effect and the auto-pick Bravery). Other nodes are a) crap or b) placed too far from anywhere for anyone to bother - their Oil price nicely underlines their 'worth'


issues with Armour:
- one flask gives more AR than even a decent gear SET (not piece, entire set). thats just stupid.
- gear prefixes collide with life/%life rolls, corpse explosion, 10%life as ES (extremely strong with Soul Tether). in fact Armour prefix roll on an item is almost always crap outcome that makes nobody happy
- the calculation order. you apply diminishing returns formula (AR) first, %PDR second. if reversed Armour would be SO MUCH better than currently
- the formula itself. given the absurd spike nature of some (rare) physical hits you need A LOT of armour to get somewhere. 1/10 of the value is the MAX effectiveness. to block 7000 you need 70K. sorry, not happening outside Herald Guardian
- no %more Armour outside hideously overpriced Determination (50% for such lousy effect? are you for real?) so it is all about base * %increased.
- no 'cheapo' tool to boost it: Evasion has the Blind thing.
- does nothing vs DoTs. it used to and that was great. right now - nope. it sucks to have 35000 AR and still be paper to any phys based DoT. that just doesnt feel right
- alternatives are just.. better, cost less and work at least somewhat reliably.

Note: as you can see I do not have any problem with AR being 'phys only'. it is nice asymetric design idea. sadly the execution is 2015 at best. in 2020 it is outdated and irrelevant (to make ANYONE care about AR they had to boost VMS beyond sanity)

What protects you better:

or:


or maybe 1c unique (30% - this one is legacy, sorry):


Last edited by sidtherat on Apr 15, 2020, 10:47:30 AM
You see, that second armor you've linked there pretty much exemplifies what I mean with different game. You say that "alternatives are better and cost less" and then link an armor like that. Do you have any idea how many people have access to stuff like that? I just did a small search on the trade side for 3+% pdr and 10+% conversion in delirium league, I got a total of 4 results, 2 of which had life on them. Priced on 8 and 10 EX respectively.

Do you have any idea how much armor you can stack for 8 EX?

From my experience you need about 50% - 60% physical mitigation against a 10k damage hit to be rather save against one shots in the late game. It's a formula I've applied to all my melee builds and it works. The question is how to get it?

If anyone could buy armor like yours at vendors I wouldn't be talking about armor here, if you can get 50%+ pdr with flat pdr, end charges and conversion that's perfect and certainly better than armor. But 99,9% of the playerbase can't.

Now you can't reach 60% mitigation with armor alone obviously, but in tandem with other mechanics it helps a lot. 20k armor, 4-6 endurance charges, permanent fortify and you are there for much less then 10 EX.

Problem is, and that brings me back to my initial post in this topic, you can't do this with Shadows/Rangers. Armor and Endurance Charge and fortify effect nodes are all on the left side of the tree so their means of really stacking pdr is extremely difficult and that's why they feel squishy for the most part. Tricksters can stack HP as hybrids and some builds can do iron reflexes but that's pretty much it because that "better and cheaper" alternatives aren't really cheap or even available to most people.

Evasion having blind is another reason to use armor builds over evasion builds. As you stated correctly, it's very easy to get. So no problems here for an armor build to get 50% evasion for free, an evasion build on the other hand will have a hard time stacking pdr aside from iron reflexes.

My argument isn't that armor is flawless, it's not. But it's still one of the best and easiest ways to help with physical mitigation. Most other methods are limited to people who a shitting exalts.

Last edited by Baharoth15 on Apr 15, 2020, 10:57:37 AM
if we are in the budget (seriously, thought that crusader plate was semi-garbo. you need lvl86 astral crusader for explodes and nothing else. this is bad luck chaos spam) then - imo - the case is even simpler:


starting from helmet, you want good enchant for your build. it is stupid not to as some give 30-50% MORE damage just like that. because you are on a budget you need enchant AND life. enter cheapo, mass enchanted unique - Starkonjas. Lots of EV, no AR, amazing helmet for pretty much anyone. 0 AR (Devotos has lots or AR but.. no life)

boots: 30ms + fluff. you can get ~400 AR there but.. again prefixes. budget gear HAS to have +life, MS is yet another prefix, last remaining one can be AR or can be one of the good boot benchcrafts (AR is not one of these). 200 AR

gloves: similar story. 200 AR

belt: Stygian. you want life, some res, maybe WED or cooldown recovery craft. there is a chance for a nice 400 AR roll tho. 400 AR

chest: here is the big one. excluding Dome Brass + Jugg you can go with 2600 AR chest (ones without life are few c, ones with spare prefix are 50c+). 2500 AR

shield: if you want to gimp your damage in a game screaming 'get more damage' you can get yourself a shield, Lioneye's is a very good starting item, getting overall better rare is far more expensive: 1500 AR

rings/amulets ill ignore. AR values on these are VERY low and rare, %AR always loses to far better options available

total: ~5000 AR (with shield)
to make that AR noticeable you need a) perma granite of iron skin (pathfinder) or b) A LOT of %Armour. even on AR stacking Jugg i had issues getting more than 140% (Jugg gives 15% per asc node for free..). getting more is simply wasting damage or life. it isnt worth it.

white granite flask gives 3000. you get ~5000 from ALL your gear. this alone is silly.


or you get yourself Lightning Coil instead and hunt for cheap yet effective rolls like 'hybrid movement speed/dodge' on boots, blind on gloves (far more reliable than oh so popular Stibnite) and many other defensive crafts/rolls that game powercreeped for us. you might even go, buy white enchanted base and craft yourself yet another 6% phys as ele for a divine

ditching AR bases you open up for a wider pool of gear (including dirt cheap corrupted 6link bases with life), make chroming easier (no fun having to benchraft 3 greens on a AR base) and being able to stack more life via ignoring +AR/%AR duo of prefixes on a chest

on the other hand you can get a very underrated but perfect for EV based characters:

the only drawback is the STR requirement but it is well worth it.

or Kintsugi + Wind Dancer combo.

dont forget Arctic Armour (and the fact there are MORE AND MORE sources of mana reservation reduction making it very affordable)

note: AR in minimal quantity is very nice to have, it removes all the 'noise' damage from the game. but stacking it or even caring about it? nowadays it is not worth it



note, if you want to see something really sick (self crafted btw by sheer stupid luck)

instead of playing Hollow facePalm Technique (that chest is pretty much perfect for it) i did a Gladiator Wander with 6 end charges, some PDR from gear and ~50 all block. it kinda worked.

noone stops rangers from getting at least one extra endurance charge (and anointing yet another) for constant 20% PDR + Lightning Coil + Warcry clusters (oh boy these are stupid) + fortify on whatever. zerkers have to travel all the way to sword circle, why rangers cannot do in reverse?
Last edited by sidtherat on Apr 15, 2020, 12:12:40 PM
linking an pure armor chest as "perfect" for eva based charrs...

i´m not saying the chest is bad for eva charrs,but using it comes with a huge price
it needs manareservation and has big str requirement while offering 0 eva
if that isnt obvious enough: 'ev chars' == rangers/shadows aka classes that start in the EV area (the classes this very thread is about).

due to EV being available in larger chunks and scaled from DEX you dont need EV from chest to reach the 'minimal reasonable' threshold. then there is Blind and Dodge and all that stuff making you getting hit VERY rarely. perfect for Crab Barriers.


the cost.. is minimal (this is budget section so no 'but you can get chest for 10ex with crit and curse and whatver' please), in fact the highest part of the cost is socket colouring as STR is easy to get and mana reservation.. you want to survive or not? you want it for free? AR is not for free as listed above (and even if you 'pay' for it it is still lacklustre at best)

Last edited by sidtherat on Apr 15, 2020, 12:19:29 PM
so you are saying a 25% manareservation for eva builds is nothing? just for a 30% phy dmg reduction that has to stack up for 7.5s and only lasts for 1 hit?

armor builds can just use flesh and stone sand stance for permanet 50% evade chance or if the enemy isnt nearby 11% less dmg taken
again - you want to be alive? pay for it. the options you list also cost something AND - in case you are unaware - can be utilized by anyone

free lunch is a myth.

would i use AA? no. or rather - only on some chars. but you dont find me whining that 'there is no survivability'. there is plenty but for some reason some expect right of the tree to be high on BOTH damage and survivability. my rangers dont die but also dont do 10m damage. it is a balancing act
My 2 cents regarding armour and evasion:

Both are garbage but armour wins due to Vaal Molten Shell and because you can convert Evasion to Armour with Iron Reflexes.

Investing skillpoints or gear into armour is a very big noob trap when a granite flask of iron skin can provide more than 6k+ net armour. In most cases its above 10k from a flask alone.

Evasion is garbage because end game bosses are full of spells and evasion has no function against spells.

Vaal Molten Shell on the other hand always absorbs a static amoumt of damage (up to 30k so you can live hits for days) and is there when you need it. So id say VMS is GGG balance team approved.

TL,DR static defenses own this game basically and armour and evasion fall short in the protection function and therefore are garbage.

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