It's time to buff ranger side of tree survivability

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Baharoth15 wrote:
Just as a little reference on the "tankyness" of ranger bow builds.

https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds?class=Deadeye&skill=Barrage,Ice-Shot


have you heard of delve characters and rotas? yea try to hit lv 100 with 200 es without rota
"
sidtherat wrote:
4800 life at lvl 90+? it is your fault. sorry, cluster jewels exist and you can get all the life you want from these

'left side gets damage mitigation'? LOL WTF? you mean Armour? noone uses armour, it is useless mechanic. you get some by accident but noone buys gear 'for the armour rating' on it. the only difference is fortify and that you can get as well if you really want it

all other 'damage taken reductions' were removed from the tree for some reason

yet again, it is your fault you overspent on damage and cheaped out on defences.

where is your Enduring Cry? you use Steelskin on CWDT (aka it procs randomly and does jack sh..) where is Decoy Totem? basic tools you can use and decide not to. cool

stuff like blind (why some casters use Blood & Sand aura? for that free blind), endurance charges, manual use of guard skills - these are all free. you skip on them.

your choice, but stop with this 'rangers are so weak BY design' nonsense. it is no longer the case. simply bow builds suck hoddibly compared to spellslingers VD/DD/Arc and summoners that do the same job but better

btw - ive played both Venom Gyre and Pestilent Strike to 92+ and these were amazingly good builds with no survivability issues whatsoever. and that was BEFORE cluster jewels.

get yourself a pair of these:

i can understand complaints about large clusters crafting. this is bad. but small ones? spam alts, regal, done.

and monoliths? i dont remember dying to them this patch. like honestly how can you die to them (ofc excluding lag-to-death but im not affected)? if you are squishy time yourself to be at the edge when it pops and work them from one angle only. you can easily offscreen this stuff, even in closed maps


So you say that I need only 800 life to be tanky? yea keep dreamin mostly you get stunned if you dont get one shotted

Also if you use enduring cry which at best gives you 2000 life regen a second you stop to cast it and then you die cuz regen is not my problem getting one shots is my problem

Also you think I get one shotted cuz I play bad or somethin no seasoned HC players get one shotted with their goddamn tanky characters in no dmg maps its matter of rng but rng hits harder if you cant get any defensive layers
well 800 is around 15%+ of your total HP (As you burn out your ES buffer with Blood Rage - yet another instance of prefering offence over defence. you get 50% chance to avoid stun if you have ES btw) so maybe try it before waving it off

it is your choice to not use shield (yes, yes prolif + 60% more poison is gerat, i know), it is your choice to not use 'phys damake taken as element' helmet (you prefer to have enchant over this defensive option), it is your choice to pick damage over life

and Enduring Cry gives you 6%+ of extra phys reduction. that is FAR from insignificant

and the one shots.. there are one shots, there are some bs moments, but most 'one shots' are in fact bursts of few hits or just playing reckless and entering a fight not on full hp. Enduring Cry helps with all that

if you die the moment you stop - then your build is unfit for content you play and it is YOU who made all the decisions that led to that

plenty of people, me included, manage just fine. dont build nor play 'left side' just like youd play/build 'right side'. playstyle matters - somehow Mathil can bring his glass cannons to 93+ with 5500 life and no layers. maybe the way you PLAY your character makes a difference?
Last edited by sidtherat on Jul 14, 2020, 3:57:06 AM
Since we are 1 month into Harvest, I took a look at how the ascendancy classes were trending.

Ignoring the Necro elephant that's been in the room for the past 5 years, and just focusing on Ranger - two things jumped out at me:


1. Ranger class as a whole has an obvious issue with survivability. This is the only class where ALL of its ascendancies shift to the bottom in the Hardcore version leagues.

We are talking all 3 Ranger ascendancies shifting to bottom 4 or 5 in the hardcore version - with Raider and Deadeye being deadlast in BOTH HC versions.

No other class exhibits this behavior. Their ascendancies either stay the same in the HC version, or 1 or 2 of the class' ascendancies actually shift up.



2. Raider is consistently one of the worst classes across ALL leagues.

She is the only ascendancy that is in the bottom 3, in every league.

In Delirium she was also bottom 3 in every league except SSF HC where she jumped up to bottom 5 - not bad



Regular leagues







Solo Self Found leagues






"
blocker2 wrote:


So you say that I need only 800 life to be tanky? yea keep dreamin mostly you get stunned if you dont get one shotted

Also if you use enduring cry which at best gives you 2000 life regen a second you stop to cast it and then you die cuz regen is not my problem getting one shots is my problem

Also you think I get one shotted cuz I play bad or somethin no seasoned HC players get one shotted with their goddamn tanky characters in no dmg maps its matter of rng but rng hits harder if you cant get any defensive layers




Fixed that for ya
3.11💀 Death Angel /view-thread/2784358 *3.10 🔨Icebreaker /view-thread/2686278
3.11 Ultimate Poison Pathfinder /view-thread/2639074
3.11 Oni-Goroshi Slayer Cyclone /view-thread/2554593
3.10 Elementalist Incinerate /view-thread/2318921
3.10 Chieftain Incinerate /view-thread/2506867
Last edited by TorsteinTheFallen on Jul 19, 2020, 7:22:36 AM
"
Ceryneian wrote:
Since we are 1 month into Harvest, I took a look at how the ascendancy classes were trending.

Ignoring the Necro elephant that's been in the room for the past 5 years, and just focusing on Ranger - two things jumped out at me:


1. Ranger class as a whole has an obvious issue with survivability. This is the only class where ALL of its ascendancies shift to the bottom in the Hardcore version leagues.

We are talking all 3 Ranger ascendancies shifting to bottom 4 or 5 in the hardcore version - with Raider and Deadeye being deadlast in BOTH HC versions.

No other class exhibits this behavior. Their ascendancies either stay the same in the HC version, or 1 or 2 of the class' ascendancies actually shift up.



2. Raider is consistently one of the worst classes across ALL leagues.

She is the only ascendancy that is in the bottom 3, in every league.

In Delirium she was also bottom 3 in every league except SSF HC where she jumped up to bottom 5 - not bad







1. You confuse 'weak' with 'unpopular'. these percentages are rarely true depictions of POWER.

2. You immediately draw a conclusion from these numbers assuming (why?) that it is the alleged survivability issue that is the reason of low %. First - there is no survivability issue, second - popularity in this case is a function of an ascendancy having that 'something'. Raider doesnt have anything special (it is all some damage and some speed - unlike ascendancies that give you HUGE damage and HUGE speed). so this one is obvious. Deadye doesnt play well with explody chest, spellslinger nor summons (aka mechanics that most of POE is built of nowadays). so why would you play it?


as for other theories - how would you explain Inquisitor's place in HC league? becuse it is pretty defensive ascendancy (cons ground path, the less elemental damage taken - there is plenty to chose and even more if you go non-crit). see? it is not all about surviability

Ranger truly lacks any synergy with current meta - bows are dead because spellslinger does everything bows do but better, you cannot build summoner Ranger (well, you can but why?), melee? melee is a f.. joke AGAIN. so why would you play Ranger at all?

Inquisitor got powercrept with exposures, ele-pens and stuff from cluster jewels. Slayer is a meme as it is a melee class with no warcry/slam synergy and non-slam melee is pure junk. the list goes on.

its difficult to play anything but meta when meta is very accessible (summoners) and easy to play (spellslinger) or made easy with utter-bs powercreep (Cast on Crit)

and - unless Necro's offerings is toned down and VD onsumes ONE corpse instead of THREE (one of the biggest wtfs in this entire game) there wont be any changes.

sad fact is - everything that is GOOD in this game power-wise is located in top-left part of the tree. guess what class has the longest path there?
"
sidtherat wrote:
well 800 is around 15%+ of your total HP (As you burn out your ES buffer with Blood Rage - yet another instance of prefering offence over defence. you get 50% chance to avoid stun if you have ES btw) so maybe try it before waving it off

it is your choice to not use shield (yes, yes prolif + 60% more poison is gerat, i know), it is your choice to not use 'phys damake taken as element' helmet (you prefer to have enchant over this defensive option), it is your choice to pick damage over life

and Enduring Cry gives you 6%+ of extra phys reduction. that is FAR from insignificant

and the one shots.. there are one shots, there are some bs moments, but most 'one shots' are in fact bursts of few hits or just playing reckless and entering a fight not on full hp. Enduring Cry helps with all that

if you die the moment you stop - then your build is unfit for content you play and it is YOU who made all the decisions that led to that

plenty of people, me included, manage just fine. dont build nor play 'left side' just like youd play/build 'right side'. playstyle matters - somehow Mathil can bring his glass cannons to 93+ with 5500 life and no layers. maybe the way you PLAY your character makes a difference?


I like how you dismiss ranger having survivability issues and go on the class having damage issues. The sad thing is that both are true. Evasion is simply an unviable defense layer in hardcore and the health pool you can reach with the ranger side of the tree is laughable, so you're more easily one shot.

I know for a fact that ranger/bow rangers are terrible because I played an impale bow champion last league and created a deadeye right after. The difference in single target damage is immense due to several reasons.

Firstly, elemental penetration is very hard to come by and usually comes at a penalty (abyss chest can only support 5 links, wise oak needs resistance balance which is frustrating to say the least, etc.), while armor penetration is pretty much everywhere - you get it for free from impale node, a lot of nodes on the tree etc.

Secondly, impale as a mechanic is basically free damage on top of what damage you already deal and it scales insanely good. Once you get 100% impale chance, 1 impale stack is basically 10% more damage, additive between themselves. It isn't uncommon for a champion to reach 9 stacks and with little investment, they can reach 10+, which is literally double damage, not counting other bonuses you get from master of metal and increased impale effect.

Thirdly, abyss jewel nerfs were unnecessary (because they had buffed monster health already, so this is basically a double nerf), which lowered flat ele damage you can get.

Fourthly, certain bow skills were absolutely gutted. Tornado shot received several damage nerfs over time and while at the time it seemed justified, the increase in monster health had already left bow builds behind. What put the last nail in the coffin for tornado shot was actually the travel distance of secondary projectiles being scaled off projectile speed. That made it a shit clearing skill compared to lightning/ice arrow, while also being unviable for single target past fork fix and insane boss hp buff.

I could probably go on with other minor changes/differences that all add up to the atrocious state the ranger is in, but I think that suffices.
whew i can never be this tanky.

meme chaos resist but managed to cap it.


to OP, dodge already serves different OP purpose tho


but agree to slight balance changes.

you NEVER EVER wanna be most popular class but never wanna be on the bottom either
Last edited by Dudebag on Aug 12, 2020, 9:09:52 AM
"
sidtherat wrote:

1. You confuse 'weak' with 'unpopular'. these percentages are rarely true depictions of POWER.

2. You immediately draw a conclusion from these numbers assuming (why?) that it is the alleged survivability issue that is the reason of low %. First - there is no survivability issue, second - popularity in this case is a function of an ascendancy having that 'something'. Raider doesnt have anything special (it is all some damage and some speed - unlike ascendancies that give you HUGE damage and HUGE speed). so this one is obvious. Deadye doesnt play well with explody chest, spellslinger nor summons (aka mechanics that most of POE is built of nowadays). so why would you play it?


as for other theories - how would you explain Inquisitor's place in HC league? becuse it is pretty defensive ascendancy (cons ground path, the less elemental damage taken - there is plenty to chose and even more if you go non-crit). see? it is not all about surviability

Ranger truly lacks any synergy with current meta - bows are dead because spellslinger does everything bows do but better, you cannot build summoner Ranger (well, you can but why?), melee? melee is a f.. joke AGAIN. so why would you play Ranger at all?

Inquisitor got powercrept with exposures, ele-pens and stuff from cluster jewels. Slayer is a meme as it is a melee class with no warcry/slam synergy and non-slam melee is pure junk. the list goes on.

its difficult to play anything but meta when meta is very accessible (summoners) and easy to play (spellslinger) or made easy with utter-bs powercreep (Cast on Crit)

and - unless Necro's offerings is toned down and VD onsumes ONE corpse instead of THREE (one of the biggest wtfs in this entire game) there wont be any changes.

sad fact is - everything that is GOOD in this game power-wise is located in top-left part of the tree. guess what class has the longest path there?


That's true, ultimately it is about the POWER of a build - but power is a function of both survivability AND damage.

And that is why I looked at the shifts between the standard and the hardcore versions of each league.

A shift between standard to hardcore variant is indicative of survivability shift (over damage) - since Hardcore players optimize for survivability, over damage, on average.

It is very clear there is a survivability issue if the Ranger classes are shifting downward (to the bottom) in the HC equivalent.

Inquisitor is actually more popular in HC Harvest than he is in Harvest. It's a slight shift - but it's a shift UP, whereas Rangers are shifting DOWN.

Additionally people who play Templar that want survivability are more likely to go Hierophant or Guardian - not Inquisitor.

In fact, both Hierophant AND Guardian shift UP in BOTH the HC equivalents!

They are more popular in HC leagues than they are in the softcore leagues - reaching mid+ tier popularity in the HC leagues.

So your argument that there is "no survivability issue" doesn't make sense when Templar classes are shifting up to mid popularity in HC leagues - yet Ranger is the ONLY class where ALL ascendancies shift to the bottom in hardcore.

And this is across both regular and SSF leagues - there is very clearly a survivability problem with Ranger that is systemic for all her Ascendancies.
Last edited by Ceryneian on Aug 14, 2020, 10:19:49 AM
well..

first: numbers have rules. if you want to discuss theories and prove them with numbers you need things like 'sample sizes', 'confidence levels' etc.

with sample pool this small you really shouldnt take any conclusions based on .1% differences. the %s on the lower part of the table are so low that no statistician worth his/her salary wont try to differentiate between them.

second, ill restate my take on this.

survivability has nothing to do with this (miniscule changes between HC/SC). current poe.ninja represents TOP % of players who are top because they dont play crap builds.

rangers are archers.. and what else? elemental melee? strike one, strike two. you know what archers can do? look with envy towards spellslingers. because functionally spellslingers do EVERYTHING archers can do but do it cheaper and with more style and variety.

and elemental melee? please, you dont get to top by playing literally the worst build archetype (please, no sweettalk here, melee works, melee can be fun, but melee is dogsh.. compared to top-top stuff we have now)


by playing stronger builds (more power per passive/gear slot) you get more defense for free.

as long as stuff like Chaos Slinger is in the game - archers.. sure, you can. but why if you go for the top?

check poe.ninja's heatmap. all the good stuff is top-left part of the tree. why choose a class that has to travel there when you can just start there? ascendancies are very generic nowadays - they all give the same %more damage, the same setup of misc abilities and some kind of defensive perk.

% life on the tree and %less damage taken sources are ~evenly spread on the tree. 8% max life doesnt mean jack sh.. nowadays. being able to summon several 5 mdps spectres does.

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