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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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Contrapatior wrote:
trading goods between one another is something that humans have been doing for thousands and thousands of years
now capitalism? 100% manmade
I thought capitalism was people trading goods between one another per their own individual discretion.


That's a very simplistic definition of capitalism. Capitalism is a subset of free market economies, not the entirety of them. The key is in the name - it's called 'capital'ism, not just free-marketism i.e. it's about capital, one of but certainly not the only factor of production. And modern capitalism is 100% man-made. For instance, the vast majority of it exists thanks to state protection of various forms. Want an example? For most of human history, there was no such thing as limited liability. People in debt could have those debts taken from whatever they had to give, including personal property - and if they couldn't pay it back even from all of that, there was such a thing as debtor's prisons. Don't hear much of people being shipped off to those much nowadays do you? That's cos of the legal protection that was created only fairly recently - by law i.e. the state. And for all that capitalism likes to celebrate the heroic concept of the entrepreneur risking it all for a dream, there weren't many even medium size ventures until this completely artificial change was enacted in how businesses that went kaput would be treated. In other words, capitalists only discovered their courage when they no longer had as much to lose. Another example would be intellectual property protection, another state creation that didn't exist for most of history. The list goes on. There's nothing natural about it.

There are plenty of versions of free market economies that it would be inaccurate to label 'capitalist'. For instance, it is possible to have a free market dominated by workers, as strange as that may sound to some - just replace all the joint stock companies and partnership firms with cooperatives instead, no state-owned enterprises whatsoever and the cooperatives are still competing in a free market. Another version might simply prevent associations growing beyond a certain size via various kinds of rules on investment and finance, resulting in an economy composed entirely of small traders - that's still a market with competition. Most versions of anarchist societies, even though they are free markets, are also not really capitalist, as much as anarcho-capitalists might love to label themselves as such, since there'd be no state to create the rules that sustain capitalism as it's practiced (this kind of labeling game only works because of this conflation of capitalism with free markets, which as mentioned above, isn't accurate). Indeed this is more of the norm - there was virtually no capitalism prior to the industrial revolution, even though there were plenty of free markets.
[quote="Qarl"]Fixed a bug where occasionally Fairgraves, Neverdying never dies[/quote]
Last edited by Exile009 on Jun 27, 2020, 10:31:34 PM
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Exile009 wrote:
modern capitalism is 100% man-made. For instance, the vast majority of it exists thanks to state protection of various forms.
I don't know if I'd agree with the 100% part. An automobile is obviously man-made, but I don't know if I'd call even that 100% man-made — after all, that metal was probably mined somewhere. I am not inclined to think 100% man-made is even a thing, excluding perhaps purely intellectual work product.

But I still strongly agree, capitalism requires a certain legal infrastructure. But I'm not sure if that distinguishes it from mutually agreed trade in general. Seems to me that would also have certain legal requirements to distinguish it from, say, slavery. Which I can hope we can agree isn't trade, even if the slaves get fed if they work.

The one thing I'd strongly disagree with is the notion (didn't bother quoting it) that free markets (as distinct from capitalism) could reliably exist in a state of anarchy. I think the natural state of man is that if the man with bigger muscles wants the stuff of the weaker man, he bashes the weaker man's head in if he wants to. I like laughing at ancaps too, but it goes deeper than that for.e — I doubt very much that most anarchist societies would be free markets.

Hell, talk to any ancap long enough and they'll all but tell you they're cool with making and enforcing laws under the threat of force, so long as it's an individual property owner making laws for the jurisdiction of their property only. Once you dispose of their internal contradictions "ancaps" are really advocates for extreme balkanization. (Not that I'm unsympathetic to a more balkanized world.)
A shining light in a sea of stagnant bong water.

Last edited by Rachel_GGG on Sep 31, 2018 0:61:72 PM
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Jun 28, 2020, 12:42:39 AM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:


Hell, talk to any ancap long enough and they'll all but tell you they're cool with making and enforcing laws under the threat of force, so long as it's an individual property owner making laws for the jurisdiction of their property only. Once you dispose of their internal contradictions "ancaps" are really advocates for extreme balkanization. (Not that I'm unsympathetic to a more balkanized world.)


That isn't anarchism, it is closer to feudalism. Someone own the land and everyone who live on his land were obliged to pay him homage, labor, a share of the produce or military service.
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awesome999 wrote:
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
Hell, talk to any ancap long enough and they'll all but tell you they're cool with making and enforcing laws under the threat of force, so long as it's an individual property owner making laws for the jurisdiction of their property only. Once you dispose of their internal contradictions "ancaps" are really advocates for extreme balkanization. (Not that I'm unsympathetic to a more balkanized world.)
That isn't anarchism, it is closer to feudalism. Someone own the land and everyone who live on his land were obliged to pay him homage, labor, a share of the produce or military service.
Note to self: don't forget money order to my feudal lord at the start of this month. Wouldn't want to get evicted.
A shining light in a sea of stagnant bong water.

Last edited by Rachel_GGG on Sep 31, 2018 0:61:72 PM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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awesome999 wrote:
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
Hell, talk to any ancap long enough and they'll all but tell you they're cool with making and enforcing laws under the threat of force, so long as it's an individual property owner making laws for the jurisdiction of their property only. Once you dispose of their internal contradictions "ancaps" are really advocates for extreme balkanization. (Not that I'm unsympathetic to a more balkanized world.)
That isn't anarchism, it is closer to feudalism. Someone own the land and everyone who live on his land were obliged to pay him homage, labor, a share of the produce or military service.
Note to self: don't forget money order to my feudal lord at the start of this month. Wouldn't want to get evicted.


Technically yes but on a much larger scale. You need to be big and strong to prevent other feudal lords from taking your land.
Last edited by awesome999 on Jun 28, 2020, 9:05:05 AM
Guys, this thread has devolved into a literal discussion about actual politics and political systems, which is specifically against our Code of Conduct.

I'm going to go ahead and shut this thread down now rather than send everyone a PM, and just remind you all to please not discuss politics or religion here on Path of Exile.

I'll leave the thread up for a few more days before I retire it from the Off Topic area entirely, just in case anyone needed anything from it. :)
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