Minion Builds Need a Nerf

it really is not just about spectres

minions in general have just too much life AND several sustain mechanics that scale with life total

5% life recovery on block is already strong for players who have 5-6k life

for a minion with 46000 (thats life total of my budget GraspBaronmancer) that one node with chance to block + life recovery is all thats needed. like seriously, the minion sustain is thrown at players like candies, you can get enough not even trying. that damn life-on-block node costs 3 junk oils ffs!

spectres being bonkers just amplifies that. but it wouldnt work without these tools being there in the first place

someone in previous posts named the issue correctly: minions just dont die. and that doesnt apply to expensive, well though out builds. it applies to all builds.

basic baronmancer, build of the past sports 45000 hp zombies. what do you need to have them killed? like seriously - how do you get them killed? i havent managed that yet. esp because you know, they kinda fight back


Let's assume for a moment that GGG nerfs minion survivability to the point that you need to spend 100ex to not lose them to Sirus/map boss/100% delirium/Beyond clusterfuck, who would bother running minion builds other than skeletons and SRS?

It would not be fun in the slightest if you made it to the last phase on the Sirus fight, juggling raising zombies/spectres while dodging his spin laser or barrage. Try targeting your spectre's corpse in the middle of an Uber Elder fight as Shaper prepares to blast your ass with his ray. The reason minions are given such high amounts of life with a little bit of regen is because their AI is simplistic plus it's a nightmare to get them back while trying not to get 1shot by whatever killed them.

I've had multiple instances in red maps where I had to outright flee from some fights because the enemies killed my minions and I needed more. Non-summoners don't have that problem. They can just 1shot the pack and move on. This has the added consequence of my not being able to clear maps anywhere near the same speed as people running non-summoner.

If the minions being powerful comes at the cost of fuckall mapping speed, I'll take it.

Also, some of you act like minions are invincible. Reflect maps are still a thing (and nowadays, it's easier to get reflect immunity than it was before for non-summoners depending on your build). 100% Delirium maps are still a thing. The fire and cold bosses from Beyond and Abaxoth will wreck your shit. Acid Caverns boss is the embodiment of "fuck summoners". Metamorphs in juiced maps are dangerous.

Also, They of Tul arguments are silly. 15% damage reduction and 20/20 dodge is not going to make you into an unkillable tank. My Animate Guardian has Kingmaker and Garb of the Ephemeral which gives me Fortify and crit immunity and I'm still getting my ass handed to me. Somehow I doubt a stationary field providing lesser Fortify and a tiny bit of dodge is going to make me into a god unless I build specifically around it. Hell I'd probably get more defense out of Undying Evangelists which make me immune to all outside damage while in their shields, plus they're mobile which means I take the fortress with me wherever I go. This doesn't even cover the potential spectres you could've otherwise used to improve your build like frenzy/power charge apes and compensating by sacrificing your offhand to use Victario's Charity and Necromantic Aegis.

If you're not having these problems, then congrats plutocrat, for being able to afford being powerful. You're able to buy your way into making your minions unkillable while instantly murdering everything you see. I'm sure there's a lot of players who wish they were lucky to be as rich as you. The game shouldn't be designed to cater to the wealthy elite.
PoE players: Our game has a wide diversity of builds.

Also PoE players: The [league mechanic] doesn't need to be nerfed, you just need to play a [current meta] build!

Betrayal was the best league we had since Legacy. The reward agency is something this game needs, and will be sorely missed.
Last edited by Pizzarugi on Jul 13, 2020, 4:59:30 PM
such a fallacy right there

it all boils down to 'some builds should be powerful on no budget because'

sadly there is just a pause after the 'because' part.

if you can get 1000 power on zero budget, there is no place for builds that require expenditure to get said 1000 power. summoners are THE no-budget builds out there. sure, no-budget summoner cannot be compared to fully min-maxed caster or even melee bonanza

but why should it be compared that way? compare zero budget summoner to zero budget melee or caster. and i mean ZERO budget. no comparison.

can you do endgame with zero budget summoner? you can. slowly sure, but you can do it. try A8 sirus with no budget melee. just do it, cmon (and that includes getting there, the fight itself is mechanical after you do it enough times)

somehow noone has an issue with zero budget melee not being able to tackle endgame but suddenly everyone is OK with summoners doing that routinely? double standards much?

sure, all builds can be pricey, you can squeze every bit of STR for baron builds, you can hunt good spectre chest or double +gem amulets. these are expensive as hell.

but you know what? you do not need that. there is no content in game that requires summoners to min-max. their clear speed is naturally capped by AI lag but ability to dish and soak damage is 'enough' already on low budget. no other build has this type of power/cost ratio and no other build requires this little hand-eye coordination.



summoners are no longer summoners. you are not summoning stuff. you automate the shit out of it and bruteforce all mechanic with HP pool that cannot be dented no matter what. there is no summoning in summoner gameplay (except skeletons, these are cool. and animate weapon - that you better automate if you want to stay sane). the power is there, overtuned, but there is only one penalty - AI momentum being the natural hard ceiling for clear speed. fun fact - most other builds cannot reach this ceiling anyway..
They've already been hit with nerfsd every league since blight and you really think they need more...

Why not focus on the lack of options for scaling most skills for end game?
I've been playing around in standard and the biggest challenge is finding something fun that actually scales up enough to deal with both Sirus and handle at least some of the delirium level content.
Yep, totally over league play.
"
sidtherat wrote:
such a fallacy right there

it all boils down to 'some builds should be powerful on no budget because'

sadly there is just a pause after the 'because' part.

if you can get 1000 power on zero budget, there is no place for builds that require expenditure to get said 1000 power. summoners are THE no-budget builds out there. sure, no-budget summoner cannot be compared to fully min-maxed caster or even melee bonanza

but why should it be compared that way? compare zero budget summoner to zero budget melee or caster. and i mean ZERO budget. no comparison.

can you do endgame with zero budget summoner? you can. slowly sure, but you can do it. try A8 sirus with no budget melee. just do it, cmon (and that includes getting there, the fight itself is mechanical after you do it enough times)

somehow noone has an issue with zero budget melee not being able to tackle endgame but suddenly everyone is OK with summoners doing that routinely? double standards much?


That's not a summoner problem, that's an "everything is expensive as fuck" problem. The solution is to not fuck over the poor people by making summoners more expensive to build than they already are, it's to make it so the other builds don't have such a high pricetag to get off the ground. It's to make every build "starter friendly" and not just a handful.

And as GGG adds more powercreep to the game, they'll continue to buff monsters which further widens the gap between the rich and the poor.

Harvest has been one of the best leagues to show that even the poor can become powerful on zero budget. Pick up ilvl 84 garbage, scour it, add quality (perfect fossils if you got them) and then just harvest craft until it suits your needs.

"
sidtherat wrote:
summoners are no longer summoners. you are not summoning stuff. you automate the shit out of it and bruteforce all mechanic with HP pool that cannot be dented no matter what.


If you're not having problems with your minions getting killed, then you're wealthy enough to achieve it. I, and I'm sure other summoners, aren't so lucky. Again, the game shouldn't be catered to the people who can spend an insurmountable amount of money to make these issues non-existent.

How about we make other builds more easily accessible for less investment before we start nerfing?

"
sidtherat wrote:
there is no summoning in summoner gameplay (except skeletons, these are cool. and animate weapon - that you better automate if you want to stay sane).


And these will become the meta if we nerf minion survivability. Again, try juggling the raising of zombies or spectres while avoiding Sirus's bullshit or you're trapped in a tiny arena fighting a map boss. At that point, you're better off spamming skeletons/animated weapons/SRS which will ultimately narrow build diversity.

And again, non-summoners won't have this issue. While you're trying to res your minions while avoiding getting 1shot, a ranger or caster probably 1shot the boss before the fight started and is already halfway through the next map.
PoE players: Our game has a wide diversity of builds.

Also PoE players: The [league mechanic] doesn't need to be nerfed, you just need to play a [current meta] build!

Betrayal was the best league we had since Legacy. The reward agency is something this game needs, and will be sorely missed.
Last edited by Pizzarugi on Jul 13, 2020, 5:21:48 PM
"
SeCKSEgai wrote:
They've already been hit with nerfsd every league since blight and you really think they need more...

Why not focus on the lack of options for scaling most skills for end game?
I've been playing around in standard and the biggest challenge is finding something fun that actually scales up enough to deal with both Sirus and handle at least some of the delirium level content.


+1

I said that earlier in the thread.
“Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.”
― Christopher Hitchens
"
sidtherat wrote:
such a fallacy right there

it all boils down to 'some builds should be powerful on no budget because'

sadly there is just a pause after the 'because' part.

if you can get 1000 power on zero budget, there is no place for builds that require expenditure to get said 1000 power. summoners are THE no-budget builds out there. sure, no-budget summoner cannot be compared to fully min-maxed caster or even melee bonanza

but why should it be compared that way? compare zero budget summoner to zero budget melee or caster. and i mean ZERO budget. no comparison.

can you do endgame with zero budget summoner? you can. slowly sure, but you can do it. try A8 sirus with no budget melee. just do it, cmon (and that includes getting there, the fight itself is mechanical after you do it enough times)

somehow noone has an issue with zero budget melee not being able to tackle endgame but suddenly everyone is OK with summoners doing that routinely? double standards much?

sure, all builds can be pricey, you can squeze every bit of STR for baron builds, you can hunt good spectre chest or double +gem amulets. these are expensive as hell.

but you know what? you do not need that. there is no content in game that requires summoners to min-max. their clear speed is naturally capped by AI lag but ability to dish and soak damage is 'enough' already on low budget. no other build has this type of power/cost ratio and no other build requires this little hand-eye coordination.



summoners are no longer summoners. you are not summoning stuff. you automate the shit out of it and bruteforce all mechanic with HP pool that cannot be dented no matter what. there is no summoning in summoner gameplay (except skeletons, these are cool. and animate weapon - that you better automate if you want to stay sane). the power is there, overtuned, but there is only one penalty - AI momentum being the natural hard ceiling for clear speed. fun fact - most other builds cannot reach this ceiling anyway..


What summoners are you even talking about? there is no regular summoner build that doesnt require a 6 link and several ex of budget
Need more brains, exile?
"
Pizzarugi wrote:


That's not a summoner problem, that's an "everything is expensive as fuck" problem. The solution is to not fuck over the poor people by making summoners more expensive to build than they already are, it's to make it so the other builds don't have such a high pricetag to get off the ground. It's to make every build "starter friendly" and not just a handful.



thats the issue right there

the idea that 'poor' people should be able to do the same as 'rich' people is the issue. it precisely should not be possible. 'poor' people can get 'rich' in this game, nothing stops them from doing so.

entire gameplay loop of this game is that you start as a poor nobody somewhere on a beach, kill mobs to get gear, to kill harder mobs, to get better gear, to kill even harder mobs, to get even better gear to finally be 'rich' enough to reach and beat endgame

your idea of some builds being able to skip directly from 'poor' to 'endgame' is bollocks. it makes the game.. pointless.

and it kinda is pointless when 'starter build' (the biggest disease ruining this game) is endgame-capable. that means you can beat the game while not actually playing the game

'poor' people, people with badly made characters and people with bad mechanical skill/game understanding should be confined to white maps where can upgrade their gear, game knowledge and skill. simple as that

otherwise you are handing out stuff and that - in the long run - fu.. everybody over.

as for the 'you have to be rich so your minions not die': that is a damn lie. you dont have to be



my ghetto zombiemancer. soul tether makes me tanky as f.., baron gives me nice zombos and the mace provides nice clear. my other gear is so bad i have to run purity of elements (plus carrion golem and ghetto animate guardian with leer cast/green staff)

(some of this stuff might be legacy but im pretty sure it works with 'recent' versions as well, i hope)

zombie life: 46000, presumedly capped resists, fortify from links

it can clear everything and i yet to have a zombie die on me

am i rich?


oh and please: 6link? all builds want a 6link, all builds want lvl21 gems (you have 7 chances to get one yourself) and all builds want good stuff. no sh.. summoners are no exception and id wager that in fact summoners can handle on 5 link perfectly fine doing content APPROPRIATE to their level/of gear!

the notion you can take a sh.. character with a 5 link and farm endgame is bollocks and should die already. you shouldnt be able to. otherwise there is no 'game' in this game anymore.
Last edited by sidtherat on Jul 14, 2020, 1:44:39 AM
this thing is 3ex+ in Harvest

so much for budget
jewels alone in a summoner cost more than a melee build

well rolled elder bone helmet
worth more than a headhunter

so much for budget

In case you didn't notice the baron and the shapers touch are already nerfed to shit and maybe 2 people on poe.ninja are using zombies as the main skill

without redemption sentry or they of thul nobody would use raise spectre

its also funny that you are not talking about brands or spellslinger which have clearspeed which summoners will never get
Need more brains, exile?
"
MasterTBC wrote:
this thing is 3ex+ in Harvest

so much for budget
jewels alone in a summoner cost more than a melee build

well rolled elder bone helmet
worth more than a headhunter

so much for budget


- The situations that are the roughest on minions are big bosses such as shaper / elder / UElder / Sirus ... where you don't have minion to feed unending hunger => irrelevant in this context.

- The Baron ( that was just showcased by sid ) is already taking the helmet slot, you can't have it + a bone helmet ....


So much for trying to make summoners worse than they actually are (=godly), or should I say have been for a while already ?

You should at least try to read the thread and understand the context before throwing stuff like this, because it really does not make you look good.

"
MasterTBC wrote:
In case you didn't notice the baron and the shapers touch are already nerfed to shit and maybe 2 people on poe.ninja are using zombies as the main skill

In case you noticed the Baron nerf is close to meaningless ( given how much power summoners already have ), shaper's touch nerf does not make it pointless, very far from it, and there is already a SSF HC Harvest lvl 100 zombimancer, less than 20 days into the league and 10 other who are 95+ ( still in SSF HC ), and almost three times more playing spectremancer.

"
MasterTBC wrote:
its also funny that you are not talking about brands or spellslinger which have clearspeed which summoners will never get

As I just said :
"
Fruz wrote:
You should at least try to read the thread and understand the context

Nobody cares that there is some OP shit that isn't summoners here, that's not the topic.


PS : I'm not aware of all the recent balance changes obviously, I'm just giving a nostalgic look to the forum and felt like pointing out some logical absurdities.
The point isn't that Summoners are the best, it's that it performs too well for how much it costs and how hard it is to pull off, making most other builds feel pointless, undermining the overall gear/character progression of the entire game.


EDIT : Somehow my PoE Ninja was set on SSF Delirium, mb about that.
In SSF Harvest, the only lvl 100 necro summoner is using spectrse + raging spirits.
There are a 99 and a 97 zombiemancer tough.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

ShakinGaijin : thread 2612666, Dyadus burning earthquake!RIP :(
[outdated]SweetBreaker : thread 823111 (facebreaker IB witch).
[outdated]Sunder guardian : thread 1831267 [BHC]ripped
Last edited by Fruz on Jul 14, 2020, 4:14:24 AM

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