Minion Builds Need a Nerf

"
MasterTBC wrote:
this thing is 3ex+ in Harvest

so much for budget
jewels alone in a summoner cost more than a melee build

well rolled elder bone helmet
worth more than a headhunter

so much for budget

In case you didn't notice the baron and the shapers touch are already nerfed to shit and maybe 2 people on poe.ninja are using zombies as the main skill

without redemption sentry or they of thul nobody would use raise spectre

its also funny that you are not talking about brands or spellslinger which have clearspeed which summoners will never get


and your point is?

you do not need this stuff to farm endgame as a summoner. if you do - sorry, but it might just be the 'you' kind of problem.

i can do any content (excluding deep delves ofc) with a 'nerfed' baron, shaper's touch and zombies 'noone plays'. if that isnt proof enough that summoners are 'just too easy to play on too little of a budget'

you quote some end-endgame gear, luxury, flex 'im rich' items. you dont need that. melee characters also can wave their 1000+ pdps crit axes and noone believes you NEED such a weapon to clear endgame as a melee

so dont try that trick with us, please

im very, very bad with summoners. my experience is limited to pseudo-ssf builds:

baron-mancer
guardian spectres (fire carpets, so i already shot myself in the foot not picking OP spectre of the month)
necro spectres (SD + utility + zombies + all that jazz)
SRS necro
animate chains of command
2 versions of dom blow (both more melee than dom blow)

all of these are comfortable in t15+
none of these is min maxed as i simply do not like spending more than 1ex on an item. i do builds mathil style - try to keep them cheap

and ALL of these builds, all of them (including 'noone plays' zombies, srs etc) is doing just fine with junk for a gear. without cluster jewels, without harvest crafting (yes, no minion-specific stuff but it is so much easier to get desired life/res now)

summoners were the cheeziest, easiest to 'play', braindead builds ive played. and i did not spend much on them. wonder what would happen if i did

maybe you simply play summoners only and you have no comparison. try a challenge if you want: take Doomsower 2h sword (6liked it is pretty cheap right now) and make a Sweep build with it. it can be done. but youll see just how much more difficult and less effective and esp LESS SAFE it is than even JUNK GEARED necro.
Last edited by sidtherat on Jul 14, 2020, 6:49:24 AM
baron zombiemancer is incredibly slow and the level 100 hardcore guy isnt using cheap gear at all

dot builds are way cheaper and faster

nerf dot?
Need more brains, exile?
"
MasterTBC wrote:
baron zombiemancer is incredibly slow and the level 100 hardcore guy isnt using cheap gear at all


1) the guy is SSF
2) the guy is level 100

There area bunch of bloody obvious conclusions to be taken from the two elements, can you find them ?


"
MasterTBC wrote:
dot builds are way cheaper and faster

nerf dot?

"
Fruz wrote:
"
MasterTBC wrote:
its also funny that you are not talking about brands or spellslinger which have clearspeed which summoners will never get

As I just said :
"
Fruz wrote:
You should at least try to read the thread and understand the context

Nobody cares that there is some OP shit that isn't summoners here, that's not the topic.


(They would definitely 'loose' in many ways to summoners - including zombimancers - but since that is completely besides the point here .... tldr: nobody gives a flying f***)
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

ShakinGaijin : thread 2612666, Dyadus burning earthquake!RIP :(
[outdated]SweetBreaker : thread 823111 (facebreaker IB witch).
[outdated]Sunder guardian : thread 1831267 [BHC]ripped
"
zzang wrote:
Summoner builds in general (spectres, zombies, blink arrow/mirrow arrow really anything with a summon tag) is absolutley busted even on low budget with infinite scaling on high budget. Summoners generally make melee look like a bad joke.

Some T17 100% delirious zombie summoner example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/hpna5u/finally_done_harvest_crafting_my_zombiemancer_at/

Or summoner crushing t19 100% delirious max juiced:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ho9m42/comment/fxilkfd?context=1


hmmmm... If you invest as much currency in ANY build than those summoners builds, you will obliterate anything too. Ghazzy has a Redemption build that cost over 150 exalts. Mathil has tons of 50+ ex builds for ALL classes that obliterate the content. I currently play a summoner and it began to slightly "shine" with high end content ONLY after I invested 15+ ex.

Summoners had been nerfed multiple times and asking more nerf WILL bring it to the level of winterorb that NO ONE play now. There are two issues at play that are not mentioned here:
1 - It takes less player skills to play summoner than some other builds.
2 - With summoner builds, you do not need to "master" as well the game because of point 1.
3 - When you are most of the time away from the fight, you avoid many "noob traps" that will make you die. In other words, you are not in the heat of the fight like a melee character.
4 - Finally, I had been playing POE since Bestiary. NEVER except with cyclone and Molten strike, GGG was able to make melee great. A few times GGG was able to make casters or bows great and those were nerfed the followed league. EACH LEAGUE I read multiple threads about nerfing summoners.

Thank you
Op is a lie of incompetence, summoner needs a big budget to really melt content at high speed. Many bulds can do that with like 50 or 100 ex,so what ? Nerf all high budget builds?

And lollll on this "too many necros playing" while most of them are... Vd dd wtf nerf yourself no emo !!!

Lol nerf life leech and nerf burst dmg berserkers or miners, nerf eva dodge, nerf high es stacking.


Nerf carpal tunnel, dumb !!!
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-post/23387491
"
sidtherat wrote:
"
MasterTBC wrote:
this thing is 3ex+ in Harvest

so much for budget
jewels alone in a summoner cost more than a melee build

well rolled elder bone helmet
worth more than a headhunter

so much for budget

In case you didn't notice the baron and the shapers touch are already nerfed to shit and maybe 2 people on poe.ninja are using zombies as the main skill

without redemption sentry or they of thul nobody would use raise spectre

its also funny that you are not talking about brands or spellslinger which have clearspeed which summoners will never get


and your point is?

you do not need this stuff to farm endgame as a summoner. if you do - sorry, but it might just be the 'you' kind of problem.

i can do any content (excluding deep delves ofc) with a 'nerfed' baron, shaper's touch and zombies 'noone plays'. if that isnt proof enough that summoners are 'just too easy to play on too little of a budget'

you quote some end-endgame gear, luxury, flex 'im rich' items. you dont need that. melee characters also can wave their 1000+ pdps crit axes and noone believes you NEED such a weapon to clear endgame as a melee

so dont try that trick with us, please

im very, very bad with summoners. my experience is limited to pseudo-ssf builds:

baron-mancer
guardian spectres (fire carpets, so i already shot myself in the foot not picking OP spectre of the month)
necro spectres (SD + utility + zombies + all that jazz)
SRS necro
animate chains of command
2 versions of dom blow (both more melee than dom blow)

all of these are comfortable in t15+
none of these is min maxed as i simply do not like spending more than 1ex on an item. i do builds mathil style - try to keep them cheap

and ALL of these builds, all of them (including 'noone plays' zombies, srs etc) is doing just fine with junk for a gear. without cluster jewels, without harvest crafting (yes, no minion-specific stuff but it is so much easier to get desired life/res now)

summoners were the cheeziest, easiest to 'play', braindead builds ive played. and i did not spend much on them. wonder what would happen if i did

maybe you simply play summoners only and you have no comparison. try a challenge if you want: take Doomsower 2h sword (6liked it is pretty cheap right now) and make a Sweep build with it. it can be done. but youll see just how much more difficult and less effective and esp LESS SAFE it is than even JUNK GEARED necro.


if you think summoners are stronger than regular builds maybe you need to l2p?

why dont you play baron nerfmancer this league if its so op?
Need more brains, exile?
"
Universalis wrote:
Op is a lie of incompetence, summoner needs a big budget to really melt content at high speed.


A random start budget summoner build that melts content at quite high speed already.
In a very safe way, mind you, and immune to most mods since spectres are immune to curses and cannot kill your character on reflect if you enter a reflect map.
For literally all content but maybe deep delving (?)


"
MasterTBC wrote:
why dont you play baron nerfmancer this league if its so op?

See, that's the main big difference between players who understand the game and build stuff themselves and the others : they are not necessarily looking for raw power because this isn't just about having the strongest character.

Of course, trying to have balance discussions with the laters is ....
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

ShakinGaijin : thread 2612666, Dyadus burning earthquake!RIP :(
[outdated]SweetBreaker : thread 823111 (facebreaker IB witch).
[outdated]Sunder guardian : thread 1831267 [BHC]ripped
"
Fruz wrote:
The point isn't that Summoners are the best, it's that it performs too well for how much it costs and how hard it is to pull off, making most other builds feel pointless, undermining the overall gear/character progression of the entire game.


The biggest drawback to summoner is their clear speed. No matter how you look at it, clear speed is king. While a summoner may be able to fight powerful bosses or run juiced maps more comfortably and at a lower cost, they do so at a snail's pace. The time it takes for a summoner to clear a map, a ranger or caster will have completed 2. The time it takes for a summoner to find 1ex from drops, a ranger or caster will have found 2 or more. You can see how they play out in Delirium if you want a more clear indicator of how much they fall behind compared to most other builds.

Additionally, not a lot of people like summoners. If you pay a visit to poe.ninja and disable "Plaguebringer", Necro drops to 14% pick behind Assassin at 16%. This means that just over half of the players running it are using VD/DD, further proven by the fact that those skills' picks drop dramatically when the ascendancy is disabled. This means that a good number of people playing necro are playing as a caster than a summoner.
PoE players: Our game has a wide diversity of builds.

Also PoE players: The [league mechanic] doesn't need to be nerfed, you just need to play a [current meta] build!

Betrayal was the best league we had since Legacy. The reward agency is something this game needs, and will be sorely missed.
"
MasterTBC wrote:

if you think summoners are stronger than regular builds maybe you need to l2p?

why dont you play baron nerfmancer this league if its so op?


summoners are the strongest single target wise and SAFEST builds on NO budget. that is a damn fact. VD spellslinger no-budget clears amazingly well but the single target is lacking. summoners.. can handle that.

miners, trapers even melee - can dish out damage but the safety is not there.

the clear speed is limited by AI momentum - there is no 'smart split' implemented yet (SRS kinda tries to but it is still very bad), no prediction. so once you reach that clear speed cap you cannot improve. hardly anyone reaches it but it exists.

the difference between summoners and stuff like melee is greatest at 'mid budget' - you know the 20-100c items and lvl21 gems. that is enough for EVERYTHING this game throws at you. try that with other archetypes, youll be shocked how hard this game can be

at 10ex range, maybe summoners start to fall behind - but.. the big point is: summoners are STILL the safest, cheeziest, most hands-off playstyle you can get, still have the highest investment/return ratio and there is no content in this game where 10m dps is significantly worse than 100m. t19 maps included.

for the clearspeed again: that is kinda fallacy. you save a lot of time playing build that is at no danger, ignores most map mods and can pick loot while still dealing damage. even with BAD, cheap summoners i could run trough a map pretty fast. explo-zombies need to touch a pack ONCE in t15+ for entire pack to explode. ranged spectres clear 2 screens in each direction, all you do is run and try to keep up with carnage. srs is the worst as the casting takes serious time.
you also save lots of time AND CURRENCY by having a cheap build in the first place, by not having to waste orbs on re-rolling maps, you dont die so the XP per hour is steady. you might need 10 seconds a map more (i doubt that: archer on a budget is so squishy that you either skip-boss or die from time to time) but you save lots of time elsewhere


and why i dont play league? because im sitting at 80 or 90 92+ characters right now and i see ZERO value in doing all the unveiling, atlas building, delving to decent depth and all the other time tax this game has to offer.

Last edited by sidtherat on Jul 14, 2020, 8:12:35 AM
"
Pizzarugi wrote:
The biggest drawback to summoner is their clear speed.

Probably, and given that there are budget summoner builds that have good clearspeed ..... ( or very good, obviously not as fast as well tuned auto bombers because those things are f. stupid ).

It means that in everything else than clear speed, they are more than good.
On a budget.
Without needing to pay much attention to anything.

"
Pizzarugi wrote:
The time it takes for a summoner to clear a map, a ranger or caster will have completed 2


1) no
2) big NO on a budget, with the same low cost, the summoner is likely faster.
There is a reason why RaizQt has been running spectre builds in a SSF HC ladder push, multiple times, before the big and stupid minion buff last year.



"
Pizzarugi wrote:

Additionally, not a lot of people like summoners. If you pay a visit to poe.ninja and disable "Plaguebringer", Necro drops to 14% pick behind Assassin at 16%. This means that just over half of the players running it are using VD/DD, further proven by the fact that those skills' picks drop dramatically when the ascendancy is disabled. This means that a good number of people playing necro are playing as a caster than a summoner.


news flash : many players find the basic/standard summoner archetype boring af to play.

And so do I, overall.
One of the last characters that I played is summoning, but it's Soulwrest, which is quite different already.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

ShakinGaijin : thread 2612666, Dyadus burning earthquake!RIP :(
[outdated]SweetBreaker : thread 823111 (facebreaker IB witch).
[outdated]Sunder guardian : thread 1831267 [BHC]ripped
Last edited by Fruz on Jul 14, 2020, 8:16:17 AM

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