Minion Builds Need a Nerf

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Orbaal wrote:
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sidtherat wrote:


and that is with pre-powercreep gear, without %STR on an amulet, without clusters (Wall of muscle: 8% life, 5% STR), without Timeless jewel (i have one that gives me like 20% STR + 60 STR in templar socket)


Thats hardly budget gear though.

Budget would be baron helmet plus some random gear pieces. And that combo clears like shit.


Stick to your point


you seem confused. this is my gear:

Spoiler

yes, chest is 6L and legacy but to be frank 5L works just as well and that 80 flat ES doesnt make any significant difference. my jewels are life+resist, i couldnt fit enough of it so i run Purity of Elements
this is junk setup, links are probably wrong etc as i havent touched this char for 2 or 3 leagues

and it still flies trough T15+ content like nothing. with current gear rolls, all the influences and stuff i think i could easily get at least one Zombie more via getting lots and lots of extra STR. but.. why would I? it is not going to beat flickerstrike builds, but for this price? you hardly can get a better well-rounder

and a newsflash - if Zombie dies, you can resummon it. simple as that. however i have yet to have one die in combat
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sidtherat wrote:


you seem confused. this is my gear:

yes, chest is 6L and legacy


And the hat, and the gloves.....

On a side note why are we considering clearing t15s as special?
even 16s aren't that hard anymore. The days of sub million dps are over.

Tons of builds can do t15s with comparably cheap gear. cheaper since i can just buy a 6l rare for 20 chaos and roll a spell caster and clear circles around you.
Last edited by Saltychipmunk on Jul 14, 2020, 3:32:42 PM
I think it's easiest to surmise this -

The people that complain about minion builds aren't playing them, as they seem to conveniently ignore why so many choose not to play them.
Yep, totally over league play.
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Camatoo wrote:
I have multiple summoners and all struggle to get over 6k life without invest heavily into defensives.

the issue isn't the class, it's how you've been building it.

My golemancer had over 8k buffer if I recall, I was using an active playstyle (debuffing with wither, self cast) because otherwise I would get bored with it, it made it more interesting.
Chaos golems, probably one of the least things played, it was fun, it was decently strong but the damage was not busted ( had some troubles in red blights ).
(SSF HC btw, Nvidia stole the game's focus during the Shaper fight, 3 seconds out of control, the third or fourth ball killed it).

It was very tanky overall, and was not as strong as most other summoning builds that I could have done, especially since in SSF you can hardly get enough primordial jewels.


If you have troubles getting more than 6k buffer, you're doing something wrong, seriously.


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Universalis wrote:

Honestly YOU have no idea of the shit you are talking about, you dont have 40/40 in all leagues, you have no idea of the global balance. Meat shield is not a real protection, in many cases you get hit with AOE damage, and sometimes it's specific minions that will target you regardeless of meat shield. Even pierce projectiles.

The main point of the topic is: does minion build need a nerf; and my answer is that all others builds with 50 ex budget destroying high content then need to get nerfed too.

ONLY 12% OF PLAYERS HAVE MINDLESS AGRESSION AS ASCENDANCY SKILL.

There's more Assassins than witch summoners combined.

Private profiles that cannot do anything else than attack others because their knowledge of the game does not allow them to do anything else.

As if AOE damage does not hit everybody else, as if meat shields don't soak any damage, and it's as if we're talking about 50 ex builds ....
We're not, people have been building good summoners that outperform your character that have 10 times the investment, it's as simple as that.

It's as if having more than 10% of the whole playerbase play one archetype means that that archetype sucks ....
You want to try to count everything that has less than 10% ?
The list is going to be long (if you don't believe me, try to find a school books that explain maths and the basics of statistics)

Here is a FACT : RaizQT has been racing several times in SSF HC with spectre based builds, during different leagues, and before the big buff patch also .... This for sure tells one thing : spectres don't lack the clear speed, and are not very expensive to get rolling.
The fact that you pretend otherwise simply means that you are wrong.
And nothing you can say will ever change that.

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Scaling strenght means you put less nodes in minion damage. So either you get tons of zombies that deal no damage, or 2 zombies that deal big hits. Usually you get 10-11 zombies with average damage.
I don’t think the OP has ever played a summoner ever.

Scaling minion damage is like ... one of the easiest things to scale in the whole game lol, like .... seriously, that's why spiritual aid has always been so busted ...

"
Orbaal wrote:
"
sidtherat wrote:


and that is with pre-powercreep gear, without %STR on an amulet, without clusters (Wall of muscle: 8% life, 5% STR), without Timeless jewel (i have one that gives me like 20% STR + 60 STR in templar socket)


Thats hardly budget gear though.

Budget would be baron helmet plus some random gear pieces. And that combo clears like shit.


Stick to your point

His point being : zombies are super strong even without power creep.
What he said : if you do this (cheap), and this (cheap), they are super strong, and you can add powercreep on top of it (== you can invest into something that is already super strong == that something is super strong without the investment about to be mentioned)

like ... holy cow, is that argument THAT hard to follow or something ? Oo
What the .....
Words that have a meaning that matters for comprehension here (bolded):

and that is with pre-powercreep gear, without %STR on an amulet, without clusters (Wall of muscle: 8% life, 5% STR), without Timeless jewel.

"

This build is using a post heavily buffed montreguls grasp which was part of one of the earlier attempts from ggg to make minions (zombies specifically) end game viable.

which went from 2000 added life and 100% added damage to 5000 added life and 100% more damage.

I do not need to tell you how massive a change this buff was.

wait wait wait, you mean .... 9 leagues before ???
And .... how is the item now ?
Did its price change ?

=> your point ???

Do you realize that zombies (just the gem) are stronger right now than they were in 3.2.0 ? significantly stronger ?


"
Saltychipmunk wrote:
Please remember the shaper was 2.4, not 3.0 nor 3.2

Please tell me your magical trick to play PoE 2.4, because I would LOVE to play without all the **** GGG has been introducing for more than a year (alright I did like Blight though).

Else take 2 seconds and feel free to realize that this is utterly irrelevant as this is about zombies in the CURRENT game, where they are stronger than in the video I showed, which was already destroying content on a budget, which is the whole point here.



I don't think GGG gives a damn about feedback here, I'm not even playing anymore, I felt a bit of stupid nostalgia (or boredom, or both), checked a few threads and though I'd point out some obvious absurdities thrown by people lacking knowledge and experience of the game ....
and as often. it just escalates because most people around here don't care about the balance at the end, they just want to not get their toys nerfed so that they can keep playing over powered stuff without needing to optimize it, and still feel good about bitching about stuff that they don't understand is over powered.


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Tons of builds can do t15s with comparably cheap gear. cheaper since i can just buy a 6l rare for 20 chaos and roll a spell caster and clear circles around you.

Could you please actually read the thread if you're going to answer ???
This is not about what CAN clear content, for f. sake ...
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

ShakinGaijin : thread 2612666, Dyadus burning earthquake!RIP :(
[outdated]SweetBreaker : thread 823111 (facebreaker IB witch).
[outdated]Sunder guardian : thread 1831267 [BHC]ripped
"
Fruz wrote:

"
Universalis wrote:

Honestly YOU have no idea of the shit you are talking about, you dont have 40/40 in all leagues, you have no idea of the global balance. Meat shield is not a real protection, in many cases you get hit with AOE damage, and sometimes it's specific minions that will target you regardeless of meat shield. Even pierce projectiles.

The main point of the topic is: does minion build need a nerf; and my answer is that all others builds with 50 ex budget destroying high content then need to get nerfed too.

ONLY 12% OF PLAYERS HAVE MINDLESS AGRESSION AS ASCENDANCY SKILL.

There's more Assassins than witch summoners combined.

Private profiles that cannot do anything else than attack others because their knowledge of the game does not allow them to do anything else.



https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-post/23387491
"
Saltychipmunk wrote:
"
sidtherat wrote:


you seem confused. this is my gear:

yes, chest is 6L and legacy


And the hat, and the gloves.....

On a side note why are we considering clearing t15s as special?
even 16s aren't that hard anymore. The days of sub million dps are over.

Tons of builds can do t15s with comparably cheap gear. cheaper since i can just buy a 6l rare for 20 chaos and roll a spell caster and clear circles around you.


i honestly doubt you can get a build rolling for that cost that is as SAFE as summoner. clearspeed is one factor, the safety is another. you conveniently focus on clear speed knowing that summoners are not that great in that area

your cheap spellslinger VD (on a comparable budget) shall clear EXTREMELY fast and flashy but anything that comes trough the block and you are dead. i have recently made a spellslinger build. it is amazingly cheap for the clear potential it gets but.. safety nor prolonged fights are its strongest suite

in the long run build that simply doesnt die, can take on any map, doesnt spend money to get power will might be more efficient than a build that clears bit faster but requires twice the cost AND die from time to time. not to mention that bossing potential is there. you wont kill in 2 seconds but you certainly wont die in 5. and that is a big f.. deal


yes, glves are legacy and i knew you would strawman these. please explain how some extra mana changes things? baron nets me +40 STR over current version, also not a problem. now you see why i did not mention these as legacy? because that doesnt matter.
Last edited by sidtherat on Jul 14, 2020, 4:36:25 PM
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Fruz wrote:

wait wait wait, you mean .... 9 leagues before ???
And .... how is the item now ?
Did its price change ?

=> your point ???

Do you realize that zombies (just the gem) are stronger right now than they were in 3.2.0 ? significantly stronger ?


My point is that there was a time, a time many people in your camp want us to go back too where they were not strong at all.

Your camp are complaining that 30 - 60k hp zombies are too tough. I know what 10k zombies feel like , i know what 20k zombies. I know one was garbage and I know the other was barely passable.

A time your example deliberately ignored.



"
Fruz wrote:

Please tell me your magical trick to play PoE 2.4, because I would LOVE to play without all the **** GGG has been introducing for more than a year (alright I did like Blight though).

Else take 2 seconds and feel free to realize that this is utterly irrelevant as this is about zombies in the CURRENT game, where they are stronger than in the video I showed, which was already destroying content on a budget, which is the whole point here.


But so is everything else? you talk about how my input is irrelevant. How is yours more relevant? how is them being good in 3.2 any more or less relevant now than them not being good in 2.4 ?

Minion builds were not the only builds to enjoy massive amounts of power creep.


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Fruz wrote:

Could you please actually read the thread if you're going to answer ???
This is not about what CAN clear content, for f. sake ...



Really? because it sounds to me like this is a thread bitching about summoners being too good at what? what is the thing we do in arpgs Fruz? What the hell do we do?

>CLEAR< >CONTENT<

I am sorry that you think otherwise, but this is ultimately what all of this is about. This is an arpg. Its only goals in life are kill lots of crap , drop lots of crap and waste our time. Everything and I mean everything revolves around this. So when someone makes a thread called "X builds need a nerf" You really think its not about someone complaining about how X build clears content too fast, easy , cheaply really? And what is build X being compared too that has convinced the op that it is too good if not everything else?


So what else is there? Why are you complaining about zombies? How do you know they are too good? Why even mention "t15+" in the first place if it did not matter?
Last edited by Saltychipmunk on Jul 14, 2020, 4:28:19 PM
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sidtherat wrote:


yes, glves are legacy and i knew you would strawman these. please explain how some extra mana changes things? baron nets me +40 STR over current version, also not a problem. now you see why i did not mention these as legacy? because that doesnt matter.



The gloves offer double the es per str than current versions

The helmet has perfect leech, 40 extra str and offers a zombie per 300 str instead of 500 str.

which means if you were at 1200 str you just lost 2 zombies if you were at 1000 str you still lost 1 zombie.

and you lose 100% increased energy shield. since you went from 200% increased energy shield at 1000 str to just 100%

That's not that trivial.


besides is 12000 ehp at the cost of stacking so much str really that amazing? Sure compare it to just hp and its better.. compare it to ci builds ... not so much
Last edited by Saltychipmunk on Jul 14, 2020, 4:31:42 PM
"
sidtherat wrote:
"
Orbaal wrote:
"
sidtherat wrote:


and that is with pre-powercreep gear, without %STR on an amulet, without clusters (Wall of muscle: 8% life, 5% STR), without Timeless jewel (i have one that gives me like 20% STR + 60 STR in templar socket)


Thats hardly budget gear though.

Budget would be baron helmet plus some random gear pieces. And that combo clears like shit.


Stick to your point



and it still flies trough T15+ content like nothing.


Im kinda confused yeah.
Since when is killing T15 mobs are bosses an achievement? I know it used to be but thats years ago.

I also understand, that this rant isnt about summoners but basically all builds that are:
- scaling gem lvl
- eliminate most map mods
- dont need specific gear other than getting basics covered to survive
I totally get that, but thats miners, trappers, totems and most chaos dmg based builds as well. They all have these perks and they all do fly through t15s on a budget.

Melee sucks by comparison at the same lvl of gear. Ofc it does.
Just like bow builds will, because both do scale of their weapons not gems.
Gem lvl can be target farmed easily, good weapons not so much.
Melee (as in you actually have to touch your opponent, which already renders this point moot for about half of the melee-tag builds) has to walk into striking distance, doesnt get dmg boosts or dmg taken reductions that their counterparts cant have nor more speed or coverage or sustain or anything really to make up for it.

This is a given issue with PoEs classless system and therefore needs a much more complex approach to provide melee with meaningful boni that wont also be used by ranged builds of all sorts.
Just boosting dmg numbers like this league isnt helping melee a lot. I get that.

But how is that the fault of summoners or all gemlvl stacking builds in broader sense? They do highlight the issue and maybe amplify it in your mind, but they arent the problem.
Yeah , if this thread was about how delirium should never have been added to core.

I would be all for it. because the amount of power creep we got from those cluster jewels, global plus skills and double influence items is astronomically greater than anything that has happened specifically to minion builds in the last 10 patches.

I mean lets just use minions as an example. We went from having no real way to scale crit.. to having a pretty easy way to get both crit multi and crit chance.

We went from chance to deal double damage being limited to an item and one passive to being able to get 10% on a notable in a cluster jewel

Remeber when aura effect stacking was supposed to be limited as to not balloon more multipliers?

now we have 150% + aura effect auras .. thanks cluster jewels.

How about impale? minions really did not have good impale options.. now they can easily get impale to 100% like a champion can...


double influence gave us the 8-9 link minion helmet. that does not need to exist

and of course +2 convoking wands is just braindead.


But again, crap like this is happening to many builds
Last edited by Saltychipmunk on Jul 14, 2020, 5:02:33 PM

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