Why would I ever use exalted orbs? "Crafting" should be core.

Based on browsing these forums and reddit (which, admittedly, are still sampling on PoE players actively interacting with the community), Harvest league seems like the very first time many players have actually engaged with the crafting system in PoE instead of just selling any exalted orbs they find, searching a trade site for something with the stats you need, buying it, and then running maps until you get another exalted drop (or enough chaos) to repeat this process. This is undoubtedly more efficient and cost-effective than making items yourself using the "old" crafting system, but it goes without saying that making your own items = more fun than just buying them.

I think the cost vs. benefit of allowing the "top 1%" to more easily acquire mirror-tier items is definitely worth it for the "other 99%" to interact with crafting in a meaningful way. In other games, this would not be "deterministic crafting", it would be called "crafting".
Last bumped on Aug 14, 2020, 5:40:26 PM
The problem is that PoE has done crafting wrong from it's core as a whole.

In other games, crafting gear means that you will always have decent gear while leveling and for most of the game content except for the harder parts of the end game. The gear that you need for that you get from drops.

However crafting in PoE is the way to get the best gear in the game (except for uniques) which leads to a very poor crafting system.

Even harvest as crafting is bad, the average player will probably not get good gear out of it cause it requres grabbing a piece of gear and crafting over and over and over again. I requires so many crafting attemps per piece of gear until it is at a satisfying state that at the end of the day, the average player still doesn't gets anything out of it.

The entirety of crafting and drops system would need a massive overhaul to make this system work well enough. Even if crafting was made available to anyone, meaning even an average player would be able to relatively easily craft good gear, it would just means that the only things that are now valuable are uniques.

With that said, the crafting that just gives all to everyone is still better than what we have right now.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."
I think that is why GGG does not want good crafting in PoE.

They want us to trade, and crafting competes with trading (not with loot drops, like some people seem to believe). So crafting has to be crap.

It's a huge pity, but "the economy" is the single largest factor in design decisions at GGG. Way more important than a feeling of achievement or fun in their game. And - like the economy in RL - only a tiny minority of players thrives in such an economy. The rest are wage slaves picking up low orbs and hoarding them to sell for basic items that are discarded by the "aristocracy".

Next league had better be incredibly amazing to make up for the loss of crafting.
May your maps be bountiful, exile
"
SisterBlister wrote:


They want us to trade


But they can't move their lazy asses to create in-game Auction House.

About crafting, harvest still lacks the crafts for attributes and mana (why is it not considered as caster affix?).
Also crafting need to have some kind of protection with low tier affixes on high ilvl items. Who the fuck was such an idiot to let ilvl 1 affixes craft on ilvl 100 item (talking about +1 to life/mana and etc.).

Crafting is one of three aspects that Diablo 3 is better than PoE (second is death penalty, and third ballista placement).

They want us to trade? Nobody would say with the way they let market be influenced to the point that right about now, an average player struggles to buy even something as simple as a pair of boots with movement speed, life and resists.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."
"
Elhazzared wrote:
The problem is that PoE has done crafting wrong from it's core as a whole.

In other games, crafting gear means that you will always have decent gear while leveling and for most of the game content except for the harder parts of the end game. The gear that you need for that you get from drops.

However crafting in PoE is the way to get the best gear in the game (except for uniques) which leads to a very poor crafting system.

Even harvest as crafting is bad, the average player will probably not get good gear out of it cause it requres grabbing a piece of gear and crafting over and over and over again. I requires so many crafting attemps per piece of gear until it is at a satisfying state that at the end of the day, the average player still doesn't gets anything out of it.

The entirety of crafting and drops system would need a massive overhaul to make this system work well enough. Even if crafting was made available to anyone, meaning even an average player would be able to relatively easily craft good gear, it would just means that the only things that are now valuable are uniques.

With that said, the crafting that just gives all to everyone is still better than what we have right now.

you know crafting an item in real life you need to hammer that thing for days and maybe one day it brakes while trying to make that edge just a bit sharper and you have to start all over again.
beast crafdt,bench craft,fosil craft,core curency craft,and sometimes you just drop somethign with good rolls you maybe anul somethign and go...
i dont want the game to cater to anyone that thinks this league should be core content.
"
BlackPulsar wrote:

you know crafting an item in real life you need to hammer that thing for days and maybe one day it brakes while trying to make that edge just a bit sharper and you have to start all over again.
beast crafdt,bench craft,fosil craft,core curency craft,and sometimes you just drop somethign with good rolls you maybe anul somethign and go...
i dont want the game to cater to anyone that thinks this league should be core content.


I don't know about you, but I at least play games to have fun, not to be a real life simulator. Also most people I know play games for similar reasons, to have fun. If you believe the game should be a real life simulator, then why do you need the game? Go craft a real item in the real world, I'm sure you'll be far more fulfilled than crafting an item in PoE.

With that out of the way, I don't think harvest should go core. Not because as some "illuminated" people is so good and allows you to make items easily. In fact, it doesn't, not unless you are part of the top players of the game which could already make top tier items with currency crafting anyway.

It exactly the opposite. This system is nowhere nearly good enough. Putting 50 hours to craft a pair of boots or putting 50 hours to get the currency to buy them hardly makes a difference and it certainly does not get more people crafting past the experimental phase when they realise after a few days that this system is just as bad as the old one!

What I'm saying is that we need a proper crafting system that doesn't just takes too much effort for too small a result. Any game should properly reward players for their efforth. it doesn't matters if they are MLG pro players or if they are an average player without too much time to play cause they work and have families. All of them should feel like their efforths are being rewarded whenever they play the game, whenever they engage with one of it's systems like crafting.

EDIT: Actually there is one small bit of unfairness in what I said so I'll make an addendum. While the farming time is still true, the harvest crafting has the advantage that it doesn't cares for map tiers too much, this means that as soon as you hit maps you are essencially making currency (read seeds) capable of making items where with actual currency you need those 50 hours on high tier maps and to do high tier maps you need good gear. So it does overcomes the problem that you need money to make money, but it still does not overcomes the problem of the investment vs reward not being there.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."
Last edited by Elhazzared on Aug 13, 2020, 3:21:22 PM
"
dzieciol1992 wrote:
"
SisterBlister wrote:


They want us to trade


But they can't move their lazy asses to create in-game Auction House.

About crafting, harvest still lacks the crafts for attributes and mana (why is it not considered as caster affix?).
Also crafting need to have some kind of protection with low tier affixes on high ilvl items. Who the fuck was such an idiot to let ilvl 1 affixes craft on ilvl 100 item (talking about +1 to life/mana and etc.).

Crafting is one of three aspects that Diablo 3 is better than PoE (second is death penalty, and third ballista placement).

diablo 3 better in crafting??? better for idiots!
that low tier option on ilvl 100/86 is to make the chances of you getting a game breaking item much lower so that when i'm playing in a party,i dont see some retard with no idea about the game go one shot the boss.
"
Elhazzared wrote:
"
BlackPulsar wrote:

you know crafting an item in real life you need to hammer that thing for days and maybe one day it brakes while trying to make that edge just a bit sharper and you have to start all over again.
beast crafdt,bench craft,fosil craft,core curency craft,and sometimes you just drop somethign with good rolls you maybe anul somethign and go...
i dont want the game to cater to anyone that thinks this league should be core content.


I don't know about you, but I at least play games to have fun, not to be a real life simulator. Also most people I know play games for similar reasons, to have fun. If you believe the game should be a real life simulator, then why do you need the game? Go craft a real item in the real world, I'm sure you'll be far more fulfilled than crafting an item in PoE.

With that out of the way, I don't think harvest should go core. Not because as some "illuminated" people is so good and allows you to make items easily. In fact, it doesn't, not unless you are part of the top players of the game which could already make top tier items with currency crafting anyway.

It exactly the opposite. This system is nowhere nearly good enough. Putting 50 hours to craft a pair of boots or putting 50 hours to get the currency to buy them hardly makes a difference and it certainly does not get more people crafting past the experimental phase when they realise after a few days that this system is just as bad as the old one!

What I'm saying is that we need a proper crafting system that doesn't just takes too much effort for too small a result. Any game should properly reward players for their efforth. it doesn't matters if they are MLG pro players or if they are an average player without too much time to play cause they work and have families. All of them should feel like their efforths are being rewarded whenever they play the game, whenever they engage with one of it's systems like crafting.

no worries this league will not be core and you will still have fosil crafting and al the huuuuuge range of craft this game offers that you under estimate.
you WILL have to get use to thinking and figuring stuff out to craft the best items and that's where the feeling of achievement will come from.
took you how much to craft 2 mirror tier items?.... you managed 2? in how much time????oh 50 hours for one? omg you guys should try diablo.
Last edited by BlackPulsar on Aug 13, 2020, 3:34:57 PM
"
BlackPulsar wrote:

no worries this league will not be core and you will still have fosil crafting and al the huuuuuge range of craft this game offers that you under estimate.and you WILL have to get use to thinking and figuring stuff out
to craft the best items and that's where the feeling of achievement will come from.
took you how much to craft 2 mirror tier items?.... you managed 2? in how much time????oh 50 hours for one? omg you guys should try diablo.


I don't think you understand the problem.

It's not about mirror tier item, I never talked about that. Allow me to give you a proper perspective.

The average player makes 10 to 15 chaos per day. Less if we consider they are doing low tier maps which often barely pay for the alchemy orb you used! And they do that because they have to, they don't have gear to go further. But even assuming they are doing tier 15/16 because they somehow magically got several ex worth of gear. They still are making 10 to 15 chaos a day.

Now let's look at a perfectly average pair of boots. These are not mirror tier, they are not GG items, it's just the bare minimum one can expect of a decent pair of boots.

30% movement speed
80+ life
30%+ fire res
30%+ cold res
30%+ lightning res

As you can see, this is a reasonable item, nothing out of this world, but something like this is rare to cost less than 1ex which we are starting to see 160c or more by the time the average player enters maps which is around 1 week after league start.

Now just getting these boots are 10 days worth of farming assuming he somehow is in tier 15/16 maps and can do them without any problems. But the reality of the situation is that PoE is a gear check and because of that the best they can do right now is white maps, at best low tier yellows. He probably isn't even res caped because it costs currency to get res cappped which means to deaths and taking further time to level up and finish maps. Heck, it's unlikely the average player at this point has a wand or scepter with more than 10% cast speed and 100% combined increased damage so his damage output is probably a lot lower than it would be desirable, even for this level of content.

So what happens? well, at low tiers you can expect that rather than 10 to 15 c they are doing more like 5 to 7 c a day. So assuming the average of 6c we have 160 / 6 = 26.66(6). Essencially, almost a month just to grab an acceptable pair of boots. All the while suffering through a build that isn't working due to gear and on that note, no build works without gear, not even minion builds before you say anything about minion like so many like to parrot as if there was even a shred of truth about it.

So please explain to me. Where is this pleasure that you derive from crafting this mirror worth items for the average player? Where is the fun for the average player to play this game?

Cause PoE has been dying ever since Delve. Covid might have engorged the number of players for a while but the fact is, players abadon the league earlier and earlier with each new league. Just this league alone there was a 40% playerbase loss after just a week. After a month there was almost 66% playerbase loss.

Back before delve where you could grab 30c and make a build that was capable of doing nearly all content, player retention was so much better, in generall you didn't even noticed a player loss before you were 1 month in and the low values that you see now after 1 month would only be seen after 2 months bare minimum.

Clearly there is a correlation to players being able to have fun in the game and players being active in the game. This can be done in multiple ways. Either make the game content much easier like it was before, or make the gear more readily available to everyone through crafting.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."

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