Cast on Crit

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SunnyRay wrote:
First, I believe that there is no such thing as "exact same time" for fireball and arctic breath. I believe the game calculates one hit, applies EE, then calculates another hit, and this is why we deal more damage with EE. Then second pair of spells come, both dealing increased damage too. This happens when a crit procs both spells.


I've tried to do some testing with this, and from what I can tell, in groups, with one person running EE, especially with all 3 elements, the server can't actually keep up with calculating the back and forth of the elemental changes faster than <10ms. Which is why I THINK that when you bombarb a target with EE, the packet exchange can't keep up fast enough, and sooner or later a collision will occur where the game no longer can keep up with what the actual resistance of a target is anymore, and crashes. It is desync at max potential. The difference being instead of locations (x,y,z), it's (fire,cold,lightning), and to compound the situation, imagine another client besides your own saying that you are at a different x,y,z location also. I think this is why the game/instance crashes. Multiple clients submitting packet information faster than server can process, or send packets back out, or packet drops from client end, or some combo of the 3.

I'm no game dev, but I do work in IT, that's based on the logic I think the clients/server operate on. While this is a fun as heck skill gem, I don't think I'm going to keep running it. It's impossible to party with people who don't have high end PCs/connections. I already have to switch out Arctic Breath for Ice Spear for mid-tier users, and I have to remove Fireball for people who play on toasters and replace with Arc. Otherwise it's basically people connecting/disconnecting all day, which sucks on Maps.

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SunnyRay wrote:
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Tipptoe wrote:
Here are the caveats of using CoC with EE:

Second, while spamming ST helps, it doesn't hit often enough compared to rapid AoE spells.



I can't think of a better skill than ST combined with L/G multiple projectiles. What are you using, or what would your ideal skill combo be? I found that ST with mult projectiles lets me do drivebys, I gather up huge groups of mobs, hit ST once of twice, keep running, and let the returning ST projectiles proc Fireball/Arctic Breath while I'm running around in circles.
This gem is actually overpowered.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/580583 is a good source for a bit of insight.


So what's the issue? The issue is that without godly gear, you can easily reach 4.5k+ hp, decent armor and 40k AoE dps having range of Ethereal Knives. Compare this to the fire trap builds which are known for their AoE dmg; it is clear that cast on crit is too strong currently. This is truly insaaane aoe dmg and easily achievable in the 4-month temporary leagues.

I can of course present all math in case GGG requests it.
----------------

So what's the problem?

*Cast on crit bypasses the mana cost of the spells. This is specially noticable with Ethereal Knives who is known for having massive mana cost.

*Cast on crit can stack multiple Ethereal Knives in same 6-link, which gives good scaling. Normally each link yields about 30-40% more dmg in practice. So if we ignore mana costs and assume 40% more per link, this would lead to that a 6 link gives in total 437.8% more dmg.
Three EKS linked is equivalent to a scaling of 200% more dmg.

This may not sound so bad, but unlike power charge on crit, "cast on crit" can trigger multiple spells per skill use. So with a Spectral Throw linked to Lesser Multiple Projectiles, you can easily trigger each linked spell 6 times per attack skill use.

All these factors together cause massive aoe damage to be achievable with affordable gear. Far far more than the majority of other builds can achieve with same effort. (Yes I am aware of that EK is not "AoE" according to the terminology in this game, but I use general gaming terminology when I refer to "AoE" and not PoE one.)
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Suggestions for solutions:

*Only allow "Cast on Crit" to trigger once per skill use, just like in the "Power charge on crit case".

*Make so that if multiple spells of same kind are linked to the same "Cast on Crit", then only one of the spells will be cast. This would encourage people to link different spells rather than just a lot of "Ethereal Knives".

*Let the mana cost of the linked spells affect the total cost for using the attack skill.
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Last edited by mazul on Nov 19, 2013, 11:02:04 PM
Forgot to mention: cast on crit is even more broken on maps with extremely high mob density, such as The Coward's Trial.
This message was delivered by GGG defence force.
That link is hillarious, droping to that hp in lunaris... High dps but that survivability is just horrible.

Once per attack (like with power charge) would make this gem usless btw. Id say add up the mana cost of skills that you support with this gem and problem solved, people will have to spend shit ton of mana/hp to support more than 2ek's.
Last edited by NagiSoi on Nov 20, 2013, 12:00:50 AM
My question is:

How come cast on crit doesn't work with enduring cry or critical weakness? - Its spells so it should work, but im not casting any when im critting like crazy...


Sorry if this has been answered before...Ive read most of the thread but coudnt find any info regarding this.

Thanks in advance!
Last edited by Fathervic on Nov 20, 2013, 5:25:24 PM
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mazul wrote:
This gem is actually overpowered.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/580583 is a good source for a bit of insight.


So what's the issue? The issue is that without godly gear, you can easily reach 4.5k+ hp, decent armor and 40k AoE dps having range of Ethereal Knives. Compare this to the fire trap builds which are known for their AoE dmg; it is clear that cast on crit is too strong currently. This is truly insaaane aoe dmg and easily achievable in the 4-month temporary leagues.

I can of course present all math in case GGG requests it.
----------------

So what's the problem?

*Cast on crit bypasses the mana cost of the spells. This is specially noticable with Ethereal Knives who is known for having massive mana cost.

*Cast on crit can stack multiple Ethereal Knives in same 6-link, which gives good scaling. Normally each link yields about 30-40% more dmg in practice. So if we ignore mana costs and assume 40% more per link, this would lead to that a 6 link gives in total 437.8% more dmg.
Three EKS linked is equivalent to a scaling of 200% more dmg.

This may not sound so bad, but unlike power charge on crit, "cast on crit" can trigger multiple spells per skill use. So with a Spectral Throw linked to Lesser Multiple Projectiles, you can easily trigger each linked spell 6 times per attack skill use.

All these factors together cause massive aoe damage to be achievable with affordable gear. Far far more than the majority of other builds can achieve with same effort. (Yes I am aware of that EK is not "AoE" according to the terminology in this game, but I use general gaming terminology when I refer to "AoE" and not PoE one.)
----------------------

Suggestions for solutions:

*Only allow "Cast on Crit" to trigger once per skill use, just like in the "Power charge on crit case".

*Make so that if multiple spells of same kind are linked to the same "Cast on Crit", then only one of the spells will be cast. This would encourage people to link different spells rather than just a lot of "Ethereal Knives".

*Let the mana cost of the linked spells affect the total cost for using the attack skill.
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It's currently extremely difficult to use, as stated multiple times before.

You have to invest in way too many things so the build isn't great until end-game - and then your thinly spread skill tree shows when you die extremely quickly. The link you posted had him come extremely close to dying to Dominus, while there are countless other builds which can do great damage as well but can take attacks much better.
http://www.youtube.com/user/P0W3RH4U5
quote
"
mazul wrote:
This gem is actually overpowered.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/580583 is a good source for a bit of insight.


So what's the issue? The issue is that without godly gear, you can easily reach 4.5k+ hp, decent armor and 40k AoE dps having range of Ethereal Knives. Compare this to the fire trap builds which are known for their AoE dmg; it is clear that cast on crit is too strong currently. This is truly insaaane aoe dmg and easily achievable in the 4-month temporary leagues.

I can of course present all math in case GGG requests it.
----------------

So what's the problem?

*Cast on crit bypasses the mana cost of the spells. This is specially noticable with Ethereal Knives who is known for having massive mana cost.

*Cast on crit can stack multiple Ethereal Knives in same 6-link, which gives good scaling. Normally each link yields about 30-40% more dmg in practice. So if we ignore mana costs and assume 40% more per link, this would lead to that a 6 link gives in total 437.8% more dmg.
Three EKS linked is equivalent to a scaling of 200% more dmg.

This may not sound so bad, but unlike power charge on crit, "cast on crit" can trigger multiple spells per skill use. So with a Spectral Throw linked to Lesser Multiple Projectiles, you can easily trigger each linked spell 6 times per attack skill use.

All these factors together cause massive aoe damage to be achievable with affordable gear. Far far more than the majority of other builds can achieve with same effort. (Yes I am aware of that EK is not "AoE" according to the terminology in this game, but I use general gaming terminology when I refer to "AoE" and not PoE one.)
----------------------

Suggestions for solutions:

*Only allow "Cast on Crit" to trigger once per skill use, just like in the "Power charge on crit case".

*Make so that if multiple spells of same kind are linked to the same "Cast on Crit", then only one of the spells will be cast. This would encourage people to link different spells rather than just a lot of "Ethereal Knives".

*Let the mana cost of the linked spells affect the total cost for using the attack skill.
---------------------




Ok so to offer some counter arguments:
-It absolutly sux vs bosses the dps is just nonono - you gonna be beartraping here.
-despite what you say getting 150% max life increase is more or less max you can get and i don't know what 4,5k max life non godly gear you talk about
-Most of power in the vids comes from linking 3 EK as Proc that are argumented then by hatered. If multicast nature was to be removed (this will happen and we all agree on it i think) his dps will drop to 1/3 (1/2 in practice since then he will use added fire)
-What that guy posted in videos was possible only due to CwDT that was nerfed since then and he said is using ST now but no vids with that yet ... eh ? (ST and EK doesn't synergise )
Last edited by Stt3r0 on Nov 21, 2013, 3:23:26 PM
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Ludvator2 wrote:
It should be able to cast only one supported spell

other nerf variants (mana cost, one cast per "roll" instead of per "hit") would be IMO too painfull and in fact "disable" this gem for offense purposes





Id say max 2 with high mana multipliers... But one seems doable with extremely powerfull gear.
or get mana multiplier for each linked spell?
IGN: Eric_Lindros
CET: Timezone
Hey, im using Frenzy linked with Cast On Critical Strike - EK - Multistrike - Melee Splash and Power Charge On Critical Strike

my plan was to get all Frenzy Charge notes to increase the damage of both Frenzy and EK, but, does the cast speed increase the damage output per triggered EK ?
Does it make sense?
I am confused...

Ty

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